An odd clearance...can anyone explain?

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:52:44 -0400, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

zatatime wrote:

What I've been taught to be correct is to maintain runway heading
until at an altitude that maneuvering won't be a problem (just like
any other take off) and then turn and fly direct to the VOR. After
station passage continue on your normal route.

That was the possibility that I'd considered and rejected. I'd be very
interested to know on what you're basing that this is correct, as it's not
what I ultimately chose.

I think it would depend on the actual clearance received. If you
received a "...direct Lancaster VOR..." clearance then it would be
proper to overfly the VOR. If you received a different clearance then
you may not have to. In my experiences I usually get something like
"climb to 2000, direct SBJ, Vsoandso to wherever...." so that is why I
said what I said.


As far as I know, there's no requirement that a clearance start with "the
closest fix to the airport". When I depart CDW to the west, for example,
the clearance starts with LANNA. If using a closer fix were necessary,
we'd use the closer fix of SBJ...esp. given that LANNA is defined by a
radial from SBJ, and there's no other way a /U can reasonably locate LANNA
w/o passing by SBJ.
This is why there was a delay in my response. I wanted to try to find
some documentation to back up what I was taught, and I wasn't home
much the last few days. Guess what? There isn't any! The only thing
I found was a statement sating the departure point will be to a
'nearby' fix. Nowhere did I find you have to file to the closest fix.
This leads me to questions since I obviously either was taught
incorrectly, or interpreted what I was taught incorrectly.

What is the definition of nearby? Can I file to any VOR or
intersection, say, within 20 miles of my departure point? Do I have
to actually file starting with a fix, or can I just file from any
point on an airway? Given the busy nature of the NY area, what are my
odds of getting a clearance using a fix further away? (That last one
may just come from experience). A better understanding of this sure
will help me pick better routes in the future since I'd always file to
the closest, even if I had a crappy route to my destination.

As far as your example: How the heck do you get to LANNA if your a
/U? I'm thinking your clearances are Radar Vectors to LANNA
then.....otherwise, as you state you have to go to SBJ VOR anyway, so
why doesn't the clearance start there?

More, there's nothing wrong with intercepting an airway at some point not a
defined waypoint. I've been told in clearances to fly some heading or
radial to intercept an airway plenty of times. So intercepting the airway
between the Lancaster VOR and ETX is no great feat.

Agreed, I've had similar experiences, but can you file it that way?


Finally, turning and flying back toward the VOR on the field puts me into
potential conflict with the VFR pattern. I don't know that there were any
of those on the day of my visit, but I don't know that there weren't.

So I decided to not do what you think is correct. So I might have been
wrong. As I wrote, I'd be very interested in something which shows this to
be the case (or not to be the case, of course {8^).

To know what was right or wrong, as I said, we'd need the actual
clearance. Sitting here I can't tell either way, but I am happy to
have learned something, and hope anyone with answers to the questions
this thread has raised in my head can be discussed.

Again - sorry for the delayed response.

z

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:00:21 GMT, zatatime
wrote:

What is the definition of nearby? Can I file to any VOR or
intersection, say, within 20 miles of my departure point? Do I have
to actually file starting with a fix, or can I just file from any
point on an airway? Given the busy nature of the NY area, what are my
odds of getting a clearance using a fix further away? (That last one
may just come from experience). A better understanding of this sure
will help me pick better routes in the future since I'd always file to
the closest, even if I had a crappy route to my destination.

I know of no restrictions such as question.

If I am flying from, let us say, KEPM to KASH, I will either file (and be
cleared), as my initial fix, BRNNS (140 NM) or ENE (178 NM). And I could
just as easily file direct to KASH. I don't because of overwater
considerations.

And those clearances were issued when I was filing /A.

In a non-radar environment, though, different considerations apply.

So far as the NY area, close to NYC (and I would guess in most busy
airspaces), random routes are not commonly approved. I would not expect to
depart KFRG cleared direct ETX, for example. There are also altitude
restrictions on certain routings.

However, you might be able to get something like KBDR direct ACK. And if
over water distance were not a consideration, that's how I would file.


--ron

zatatime wrote in
:

What is the definition of nearby? Can I file to any VOR or
intersection, say, within 20 miles of my departure point? Do I have
to actually file starting with a fix, or can I just file from any
point on an airway? Given the busy nature of the NY area, what are my
odds of getting a clearance using a fix further away? (That last one
may just come from experience). A better understanding of this sure
will help me pick better routes in the future since I'd always file to
the closest, even if I had a crappy route to my destination.

You can file to any fix you can navigate to. I regularly file to and from
lat/lon coordinates, far from any airway. It's easier for ATC if you file to
a fix they have in the database, but it's not absolutely essential. You do
need to be able to navigate to the fix in the event of radar failure.

You may not be cleared to the fix you filed to, and perhaps won't get the
route you filed. But you can *file* what you like.

--
Regards,

Stan

Reading Don Brown's AvWeb column, filing to lat/lon's is causes problems.

Stan Gosnell wrote:
You can file to any fix you can navigate to. I regularly file to and from
lat/lon coordinates, far from any airway. It's easier for ATC if you file to
a fix they have in the database, but it's not absolutely essential. You do
need to be able to navigate to the fix in the event of radar failure.
You may not be cleared to the fix you filed to, and perhaps won't get the
route you filed. But you can *file* what you like.

"john smith" wrote in message
...

Reading Don Brown's AvWeb column, filing to lat/lon's is causes problems.


He's mistaken.