Instrument Approaches in High Winds

Jim Macklin wrote:
Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo students as
long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day or
two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather starts
at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4 inch).

One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was calm
and they all were landing very long, those calm winds are a
real problem.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


That was exactly my observation too when I lived in Albuquerque. I used
to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got all kind of
weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against the aircraft
certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in more than 10
knots.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote:

Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo students as
long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day or
two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather starts
at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4 inch).

One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was calm
and they all were landing very long, those calm winds are a
real problem.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P



That was exactly my observation too when I lived in Albuquerque. I used
to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got all kind of
weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against the aircraft
certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in more than 10
knots.


If the 25 knots was orthogonal to the runway, then I understand the
weird looks. If it was a headwind aligned with the runway, then not a
big deal. Taxiing might be a little interesting if the trainer is a
C152, but landing should be easy ... and very short!

Matt

I guess what I was trying to say was those who live in less windy areas
tend to think of the "demonstrated crosswind" are a real limitation.


Matt Whiting wrote:
Andrew Sarangan wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote:

Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo students as
long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day or
two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather starts
at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4 inch).

One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was calm
and they all were landing very long, those calm winds are a
real problem.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P



That was exactly my observation too when I lived in Albuquerque. I used
to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got all kind of
weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against the aircraft
certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in more than 10
knots.


If the 25 knots was orthogonal to the runway, then I understand the
weird looks. If it was a headwind aligned with the runway, then not a
big deal. Taxiing might be a little interesting if the trainer is a
C152, but landing should be easy ... and very short!

Matt

Yes, they do think that. It is a fact that was just as much
wind as was blowing the day they did the proving test for
certification. The FAR 23 sets a minimum wind as a function
of stall speed, but with proper technique the actual limit
is much higher. Just to make the point, if the runway is
3,500 x 150 feet and the crosswind is 40 knots, you can land
at an angle on the runway, reducing the crosswind component.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
|I guess what I was trying to say was those who live in less
windy areas
| tend to think of the "demonstrated crosswind" are a real
limitation.
|
|
| Matt Whiting wrote:
| Andrew Sarangan wrote:
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year.
We
| often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways
are
| pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
| crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo
students as
| long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts
are
| minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind
comes
| sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid
day or
| two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather
starts
| at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4
inch).
|
| One day I remember watching the airliners land. It
was calm
| and they all were landing very long, those calm winds
are a
| real problem.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
|
|
| That was exactly my observation too when I lived in
Albuquerque. I used
| to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got
all kind of
| weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and
"against the aircraft
| certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in
more than 10
| knots.
|
|
| If the 25 knots was orthogonal to the runway, then I
understand the
| weird looks. If it was a headwind aligned with the
runway, then not a
| big deal. Taxiing might be a little interesting if the
trainer is a
| C152, but landing should be easy ... and very short!
|
| Matt
|

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:08:10 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
wrote:

Yes, they do think that. It is a fact that was just as much
wind as was blowing the day they did the proving test for
certification. The FAR 23 sets a minimum wind as a function
of stall speed, but with proper technique the actual limit
is much higher. Just to make the point, if the runway is
3,500 x 150 feet and the crosswind is 40 knots, you can land
at an angle on the runway, reducing the crosswind component.

The maximum demonstrated cross wind component for the Debonair I fly
is 12 knots. It is quite capable of handeling a direct (90 degree)
cross wind of 25 knots. That BTW is both its limit and my limit (when
I've been practicing and am proficient).

The 150s I've flown could handle at least that much, but it took far
more skill to handle them in strong cross winds than it does the Deb.
They are much ligher with far less inertia and react much more quickly
to the wind changes.

My first cross long cross country was in winds that at times reached
30 knots and I had at least a 15 knot, 90 degree cross wind at the
first landing. I took the approach (no pun intended) that I would give
it a try but I didn't have to land and would only do so if every thing
went well. It did.

Flying in high winds is not at all uncommon in the Mid West and
particularly the Great Planes states. If you really want winds use
the airports just off the "Front Range". OTOH They consider less than
75 miles poor visibility while the Great Lakes states consider 1500
and three great VFR.

Any one remember how the story goes about the pilot from the Great
Lakes and the one from out West feeling their way around a hangar in
fog and 10 knot winds or something like that?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 08/05/06 12:22, Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:08:10 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
wrote:


Flying in high winds is not at all uncommon in the Mid West and
particularly the Great Planes states. If you really want winds use
the airports just off the "Front Range". OTOH They consider less than
75 miles poor visibility while the Great Lakes states consider 1500
and three great VFR.

Any one remember how the story goes about the pilot from the Great
Lakes and the one from out West feeling their way around a hangar in
fog and 10 knot winds or something like that?

They both agreed that what they were feeling was an elephant, right?

;-)

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I guess what I was trying to say was those who live in less windy areas
tend to think of the "demonstrated crosswind" are a real limitation.

Yes, that is true. I learned at a mountaintop airport in PA with an
east/west runway, but with a large valley (called the PA Grand Canyon)
that runs north/south just southwest of the airport that channels the
prevailing west wind into a north of south wind right across the runway.
The only crosswind limitation I was taught was running out of rudder.
and even then, you could land on the grass strip as it would take a
little bit of lateral misalignment at touchdown.

I don't know what the limit for a Skylane is, but I've landed in 18K
crosswinds before. Since I never crashed it, I don't really know the
limit. :-)


Matt

Positioning the flight controls properly is essential. Too
many pilots trained in calm winds only [It windy today
should mean go fly, too often it is a day for ground school]
only. They are always at the mercy of any weather change.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| Andrew Sarangan wrote:
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
| often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
| pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
| crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo
students as
| long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
| minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
| sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day
or
| two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather
starts
| at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4
inch).
|
| One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was
calm
| and they all were landing very long, those calm winds
are a
| real problem.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
|
|
| That was exactly my observation too when I lived in
Albuquerque. I used
| to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got
all kind of
| weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against
the aircraft
| certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in
more than 10
| knots.
|
|
| If the 25 knots was orthogonal to the runway, then I
understand the
| weird looks. If it was a headwind aligned with the
runway, then not a
| big deal. Taxiing might be a little interesting if the
trainer is a
| C152, but landing should be easy ... and very short!
|
| Matt

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:9HCAg.85011$ZW3.63530@dukeread04...
Positioning the flight controls properly is essential. Too
many pilots trained in calm winds only [It windy today
should mean go fly, too often it is a day for ground school]
only. They are always at the mercy of any weather change.

Couldn't agree more. When I was training, we experienced the aircraft's
maximum headwind and crosswind at various times, and it was valuable
experience - if only to demonstrate that the wing didn't bang into the
ground even though it looked like it was going to! And I remember the first
calm day - landed considerably further into the runway than ever before!

D.

I have taken off with calm winds and had 40 knots 1/2 an
hour later. If you don't teach students to fly in strong
winds, you are not preparing them for changes in the
weather.

First solo at 25 knots isn't a problem, we have probably
flown many dual lessons at 25 knots or more. We also seek
out strong crosswinds.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
| often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
| pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
| crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo
students as
| long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
| minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
| sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day
or
| two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather
starts
| at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4
inch).
|
| One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was
calm
| and they all were landing very long, those calm winds
are a
| real problem.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
|
| That was exactly my observation too when I lived in
Albuquerque. I used
| to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got all
kind of
| weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against
the aircraft
| certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in more
than 10
| knots.
|