Implications of.....keeping the speed up

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 08:21:47 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:
Pilots are routinely taken below the floor of Class B airspace when
exceeding 200 knots. Most airline pilots have no idea where the
boundaries or floors of Class B airspace are located. No one cares
except the occasional fed on the jump seat who has a thing about it.

This is what I've observed too. Pilots flying hi level do not bother
with low level charts nor class B charts. Only hi level charts and
sid/star charts. Not saying it is safe, legal or proper, just that
it's normal ops.

Sam, would it be true too for the 2500 AGL within 4 nm limitation too,
in your opinion?

Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

Stan

wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 08:21:47 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

Pilots are routinely taken below the floor of Class B airspace when
exceeding 200 knots. Most airline pilots have no idea where the
boundaries or floors of Class B airspace are located. No one cares
except the occasional fed on the jump seat who has a thing about it.


This is what I've observed too. Pilots flying hi level do not bother
with low level charts nor class B charts. Only hi level charts and
sid/star charts. Not saying it is safe, legal or proper, just that
it's normal ops.

It is impossible to figure out Class B from a paper chart in a jet
transport with all the more important stuff that has to be done.

With boundaries and altitude limits display electronically, it is
possible but still a lot of distraction. Try it with a Garmin with all
the aural elerts set and it is a pain. With a Garmin, it works well to
avoid Class B when VFR, but to use it to assure containment when on a
clearance within Class B, it becomes overwhelming.

Sam, would it be true too for the 2500 AGL within 4 nm limitation too,
in your opinion?

No. It is far easier to figure out where the stand-alone Class D
airspace is located.

Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."

Sam Spade wrote:
Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."

Althought ATC can authorized it, there is a rule.
91.131
(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large
turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which
a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the
designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral
limits of that area.

Why do I get the feeling that none of you guys have ever flown anything
that does 250 knots?

-Robert, CFII

On 7 Jan 2007 21:11:01 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:


Sam Spade wrote:
Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."

Althought ATC can authorized it, there is a rule.
91.131
(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large
turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which
a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the
designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral
limits of that area.

Why do I get the feeling that none of you guys have ever flown anything
that does 250 knots?

That's why I'm waiting to finish the G-III before joining this thread.
Vne on the Deb is 225....MPH so it won't be with that.

-Robert, CFII
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:

Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."


Althought ATC can authorized it, there is a rule.
91.131
(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large
turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which
a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the
designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral
limits of that area.

Why do I get the feeling that none of you guys have ever flown anything
that does 250 knots?

-Robert, CFII

And, doesn't it say "unless otherwise authorized by ATC?" The pilot of
a large turbine-powered airplane cannot drop below the floor unless ATC
sends them there.

I don't know where you get your feeling. I suspect I have a lot more
air carrier large jet time that you do, and let me assure you no one in
the airline business refers to a Class B (TCA for many years) chart
since no airline pilot in his/her right mind ever cancels arriving at a
Class B airport.

ATC takes aircraft out the sides of Class B, and sometime returns them
below the floor of an outer area.

I did my fair share of ferrying aircraft from KONT to LAX and the
clearance was always at 4,000, handed off to LAX Approach Control
(pre-SoCal) days well below the floor of Class B. On that one most of
us were smart enough to stay at 200 knots; if not assigned something
less before the handoff.

Sam Spade wrote:
And, doesn't it say "unless otherwise authorized by ATC?" The pilot of
a large turbine-powered airplane cannot drop below the floor unless ATC
sends them there.

Your browser appears to be truncating previous posts so I'll repost the
statement I made in the posting you are referring to...

"Althought ATC can authorized it, there is a rule."

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:

And, doesn't it say "unless otherwise authorized by ATC?" The pilot of
a large turbine-powered airplane cannot drop below the floor unless ATC
sends them there.


Your browser appears to be truncating previous posts so I'll repost the
statement I made in the posting you are referring to...

"Althought ATC can authorized it, there is a rule."

-Robert


But, that is not a rule that requires ATC to keep you in Class B. It is
just the opposite.

The OP wanted to know whether ATC would assure containment within Class
B. It was my choice of words to say there is no rule that requires to
to that, but it is FAA policy to the extent practical.

The regulation you cited is their authority to deviate from that policy.

Sam Spade wrote:
That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."

First off, I'm a (very) light a/c IFR pilot. But having listened to
Channel 9 on UA for 135000 miles this past year, it is my (again,
limited) understanding/guess that on the approach the IAS is per the
pilots discretion AND within the FAR's. If there will be a traffic
problem, then ATC will issue to the affected a/c either delay vectors or
speed restrictions. It is common to hear "maintain 180 IAS until 6 DME"
where the pilots slow the plane to landing speed while descending on
the ILS. I don't recall clearance of a IAS "at least 200" as I usually
mentally read back clearances but I personally don't have to worry about
the FAR's since I'm a lowly piece of luggage at seat 2A on a A320 rather
than being the busdriver. I only wish an Archer could go that fast. I
just wish I could rent an Airbus for 100k frequent flier miles per hour.
;-)


Gerald

G. Sylvester writes:

First off, I'm a (very) light a/c IFR pilot. But having listened to
Channel 9 on UA for 135000 miles this past year ...

Is that like spending hundreds of hours with a simulator?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic writes:

G. Sylvester writes:

First off, I'm a (very) light a/c IFR pilot. But having listened to
Channel 9 on UA for 135000 miles this past year ...

Is that like spending hundreds of hours with a simulator?

No, it takes hundreds of hours flying an actual plane to get to be an IFR
pilot. Having simulator experience helps a person understand the
environment, but it's not the same as having actually had a scary learning
experience in real life. Guaranteed that THOSE are the lessons you learn
from.

-Jack