Blue Angels Jet Crashes, Pilot KIlled:

Dudley

Evaluation of the Goose Bay crash is on this URL plus some more on the
F-20. Classic high G black out.

http://www.f20a.com/

Big John

************************************************** ********************8
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:56:56 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

I hadn't heard about the F20's, but as you say, the scenario is common now
in modern fighters. These new crates can pull g that was way out of the
envelope back in the "old days" when you and I were "dancin and prancin"
around the sky.
In the F16 community, the Viper guys call it the 9g sleep. The guys can hack
it but they are REALLY in shape to do it.
The Blues don't wear g suits and normally, except for some of the solo max
performance stuff, the guys are on the lean side of positive 4 in the
diamond anyway. The solos are into hook territory a few times during their
part of the show and normally they can grunt it off.
But anyone...Blue Angel or otherwise, putting a Hornet or a Viper into a
hard constant sustained high g at low altitude is just asking for a sleeping
pill, especially directly after maneuvering through 3 dimensions as number 6
was doing. He had a perfect setup for a sleep turn, diving in low and fast,
increasing the g to avoid the overshoot, and then adding insult to injury,
throwing in some positive pitch to avoid going low and behind as he broke
the hard deck the diamond was flying as they passed him.
It was a shame really. The Blues could easily have extended for him if the
boss had known what was happening behind him as they passed. He just looked
like he was too close in, and going sucked in the turn. He had the classic
square corner.
All this of course assumes that Gloc was the cause. The MIR can blow it all
away as we both know all too well.
Dudley Henriques

"Big John" wrote in message
.. .

Dudley

Northrup built built two F-20's. One was on way to Paris Air Show and
pilot was practicing his routine at Goose Bay, Lab on way over and
went in from what was later determined as GLOC.

The second F-20 was sent to Korea and in a demo flight with a Korean
General went in almost exactly like the one at Goose Bay.

These two accidents caused a lot of agitation in the fighter comunity
and operational limits on pilots was set up as I recall (especially
for the F-16 which had the ability to put a pilot into GLOC very
easy).

Very insidious thing but is briefed routinely now.

Big John
****************************************

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:46:33 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

I would agree with this assessment completely at this point, as the crash
is
indeed consistent with 6 missing his hack point for the rejoin then
overshooting the diamond and yanking a yard of stick to arc into a cutoff
to
catch up.
The flattening out of the turn and almost instantaneous ground contact is
absolutely consistent with Gloc under the existing conditions .
From what I saw, I'd bet the house it was Gloc.
These things have a nasty habit of NOT being the obvious, and many is the
time you look at something and it's completely wrong, but everyone I know
in
the Thunderbird community and the rest of the pilots I know in the
demonstration community all think it was Gloc as well.
Dudley Henriques

"Big John" wrote in message
...
Received this from a friend of mine. All conjecture at this time but
interesting reading.

I have left some comments in by other heavy iron drivers who passed
the original e-mail along.

Dudley may want to comment on this?

Big John
************************************************** **************

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 12:33 AM
Subject: Fw: Blue Angel Loss


This is an explanation of what may have caused the recent crash of a
Blue Angel.


Bob,
Roland sent this to me from a buddy of his. Sad yet interesting that
GLOC can take out even seasoned pilots. Larry

At this point, this is just speculation but interesting.


Subject: Blues

Hey Guys - got the below from Stew Crane, retired 0-6.

**************

For those who missed the news. This from my cousin currently fighting
the war in Hawaii. Pete is a former A4 and F-18 driver and IP. Below
his text is the first official Navy PA report. Stew


From: CAPT, USNR
Subject:
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:23:28 -0400



Stew,

More detail available today. Having seen video of the crash, my
initial speculation is that there was a G induced loss of
consciousness (GLOC).

The most aggressive flying in the Blue Angel show takes place in the
join ups behind show center. The timing requires "expeditious" join
ups involving huge overtake speeds and high G maneuvering in the
terminal phase of the rejoin to dissipate the overtake. The video I
saw shows No.6 closing on the formation for the rejoin, but before he
gets there, the jet lags the formation, goes outside the turn radius
and descends in seeming controlled flight to the tree line. This would
be consistent with GLOC on the rendezvous. If the pilot passed out at
the join up, he'd be back on the power. Upon loss of consciousness,
the G would ease immediately taking him outside the formation turn
radius. At flight idle, the jet would slowly descend. To regain
consciousness, the pilot needs blood to flow to the brain which takes
a varying amount of time depending how deep the GLOC. The senses
return in reverse sequence to their loss. Hearing, then vision,
cognition, then motor control. The frustrating part is when you can
see and understand the problem but don't have the motor control to
manipulate the flight controls
appropriately.

*I have done this to myself in the Hornet, thankfully not so close to
the ground.

Of course, without the determinations of the safety investigation, the
foregoing is mere speculation. However, a catastrophic, double engine
failure is unheard of in the Hornet, and it would likely provide
evidence in smoke, flames and parts emanating from the tailpipes prior
to the crash. The media all seem focused on the impact with trees and
power lines, but that is inevitable when falling to the earth.

This pilot was no rookie. A former Tomcat driver and TOPGUN grad, he
was an experienced fighter pilot. GLOC is something that can effect
even the most seasoned pilots and it varies day to day and can turn on
something as innocuous as time since the pilot's last meal.

In any event, this is a sad day for the Navy.

V/r,

Wacko



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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The F20 was quite a project. America's answer to the export market without
giving away all our REAL goodies technology:-)
Hank Chouteau was one of the Northrop test pilots who flew it. I had
occasion to work with Hank once during the YF17 (FA18) Hornet development
project when Hank and Bob Elder brought the prototype Hornet down to Pax
River to sell it to the navy. I narrated the demonstration flight for
Northrop at the Pax airshow for Hank. We went out to dinner the night before
the Hornet demonstration and Hank put down a ton of oysters. I remember
recalling that on the mike for about 100 thousand people during the demo as
Hank was doing a 9g turn :-))
Great people at Northrop, and they make great airplanes.
Dudley Henriques

"Big John" wrote in message
...

Dudley

Evaluation of the Goose Bay crash is on this URL plus some more on the
F-20. Classic high G black out.

http://www.f20a.com/

Big John

************************************************** ********************8
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:56:56 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

I hadn't heard about the F20's, but as you say, the scenario is common now
in modern fighters. These new crates can pull g that was way out of the
envelope back in the "old days" when you and I were "dancin and prancin"
around the sky.
In the F16 community, the Viper guys call it the 9g sleep. The guys can
hack
it but they are REALLY in shape to do it.
The Blues don't wear g suits and normally, except for some of the solo max
performance stuff, the guys are on the lean side of positive 4 in the
diamond anyway. The solos are into hook territory a few times during their
part of the show and normally they can grunt it off.
But anyone...Blue Angel or otherwise, putting a Hornet or a Viper into a
hard constant sustained high g at low altitude is just asking for a
sleeping
pill, especially directly after maneuvering through 3 dimensions as number
6
was doing. He had a perfect setup for a sleep turn, diving in low and
fast,
increasing the g to avoid the overshoot, and then adding insult to injury,
throwing in some positive pitch to avoid going low and behind as he broke
the hard deck the diamond was flying as they passed him.
It was a shame really. The Blues could easily have extended for him if the
boss had known what was happening behind him as they passed. He just
looked
like he was too close in, and going sucked in the turn. He had the classic
square corner.
All this of course assumes that Gloc was the cause. The MIR can blow it
all
away as we both know all too well.
Dudley Henriques

"Big John" wrote in message
. ..

Dudley

Northrup built built two F-20's. One was on way to Paris Air Show and
pilot was practicing his routine at Goose Bay, Lab on way over and
went in from what was later determined as GLOC.

The second F-20 was sent to Korea and in a demo flight with a Korean
General went in almost exactly like the one at Goose Bay.

These two accidents caused a lot of agitation in the fighter comunity
and operational limits on pilots was set up as I recall (especially
for the F-16 which had the ability to put a pilot into GLOC very
easy).

Very insidious thing but is briefed routinely now.

Big John
****************************************

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:46:33 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

I would agree with this assessment completely at this point, as the
crash
is
indeed consistent with 6 missing his hack point for the rejoin then
overshooting the diamond and yanking a yard of stick to arc into a
cutoff
to
catch up.
The flattening out of the turn and almost instantaneous ground contact
is
absolutely consistent with Gloc under the existing conditions .
From what I saw, I'd bet the house it was Gloc.
These things have a nasty habit of NOT being the obvious, and many is
the
time you look at something and it's completely wrong, but everyone I
know
in
the Thunderbird community and the rest of the pilots I know in the
demonstration community all think it was Gloc as well.
Dudley Henriques

"Big John" wrote in message
m...
Received this from a friend of mine. All conjecture at this time but
interesting reading.

I have left some comments in by other heavy iron drivers who passed
the original e-mail along.

Dudley may want to comment on this?

Big John
************************************************** **************

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 12:33 AM
Subject: Fw: Blue Angel Loss


This is an explanation of what may have caused the recent crash of a
Blue Angel.


Bob,
Roland sent this to me from a buddy of his. Sad yet interesting that
GLOC can take out even seasoned pilots. Larry

At this point, this is just speculation but interesting.


Subject: Blues

Hey Guys - got the below from Stew Crane, retired 0-6.

**************

For those who missed the news. This from my cousin currently fighting
the war in Hawaii. Pete is a former A4 and F-18 driver and IP. Below
his text is the first official Navy PA report. Stew


From: CAPT, USNR
Subject:
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:23:28 -0400



Stew,

More detail available today. Having seen video of the crash, my
initial speculation is that there was a G induced loss of
consciousness (GLOC).

The most aggressive flying in the Blue Angel show takes place in the
join ups behind show center. The timing requires "expeditious" join
ups involving huge overtake speeds and high G maneuvering in the
terminal phase of the rejoin to dissipate the overtake. The video I
saw shows No.6 closing on the formation for the rejoin, but before he
gets there, the jet lags the formation, goes outside the turn radius
and descends in seeming controlled flight to the tree line. This would
be consistent with GLOC on the rendezvous. If the pilot passed out at
the join up, he'd be back on the power. Upon loss of consciousness,
the G would ease immediately taking him outside the formation turn
radius. At flight idle, the jet would slowly descend. To regain
consciousness, the pilot needs blood to flow to the brain which takes
a varying amount of time depending how deep the GLOC. The senses
return in reverse sequence to their loss. Hearing, then vision,
cognition, then motor control. The frustrating part is when you can
see and understand the problem but don't have the motor control to
manipulate the flight controls
appropriately.

*I have done this to myself in the Hornet, thankfully not so close to
the ground.

Of course, without the determinations of the safety investigation, the
foregoing is mere speculation. However, a catastrophic, double engine
failure is unheard of in the Hornet, and it would likely provide
evidence in smoke, flames and parts emanating from the tailpipes prior
to the crash. The media all seem focused on the impact with trees and
power lines, but that is inevitable when falling to the earth.

This pilot was no rookie. A former Tomcat driver and TOPGUN grad, he
was an experienced fighter pilot. GLOC is something that can effect
even the most seasoned pilots and it varies day to day and can turn on
something as innocuous as time since the pilot's last meal.

In any event, this is a sad day for the Navy.

V/r,

Wacko



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/778 - Release Date:
4/27/2007 1:39 PM