TFR Bust = Criminal Record For Pilots?

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
An emergency situation forced a decision to violate the TFR.


In an emergency, there is no violation of the TFR. The PIC has the
authority to devitate....


I wouldn't bet my skin, tin, or ticket on that one.
The fact you are in distress isn't going to keep the guys in the
black helicopters or F-16's from trying to intercept you.
The FAA's track record on emergency authority isn't as iron clad
as you would like. The FAA has decided that if you get into the
emergency by your own screw up then they will still blast you for
the resulting deviations.

On 2007-10-24 04:19:56 -0700, Ron Natalie said:

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
An emergency situation forced a decision to violate the TFR.


In an emergency, there is no violation of the TFR. The PIC has the
authority to devitate....


I wouldn't bet my skin, tin, or ticket on that one.
The fact you are in distress isn't going to keep the guys in the
black helicopters or F-16's from trying to intercept you.
The FAA's track record on emergency authority isn't as iron clad
as you would like. The FAA has decided that if you get into the
emergency by your own screw up then they will still blast you for
the resulting deviations.

No one has been shot down by black helicopters or F-16s. Imagine the
fallout if someone were. "FAMILY OF FOUR SHOT DOWN BY F-16. A family of
four in a Cessna were forced to descend into a temporarily restricted
area when the engine on their airplane quit for unknown reasons.
Although the pilot broadcast his emergency on the radio, the F-16s were
not equipped with civilian frequencies and opened fire without warning."

Nope. Don't see it happening. Heads would roll and it would be the end
of the TFR system as we know it.

This is not something new. The FAA has always had the authority to
press criminal charges against pilots the willfully violate restricted
areas. It is not surprising that they have had to publicly re-assert
this authority in view of the numerous pilots violating flight
restrictions.

But fear of getting shot down or charged with criminal activity are
poor excuses for staying out of TFRs. Fear of getting slammed by a
DC-10 full of fire retardant, crashing and starting yet another fire
ought to be foremost in your mind.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Ron Natalie writes:

I wouldn't bet my skin, tin, or ticket on that one.

If you have an emergency, all of Part 91 can be suspended for the purpose of
ensuring safety.

The fact you are in distress isn't going to keep the guys in the
black helicopters or F-16's from trying to intercept you.

Maybe, but that has nothing to do with the legality of doing so.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Ron Natalie writes:

I wouldn't bet my skin, tin, or ticket on that one.

If you have an emergency, all of Part 91 can be suspended for the
purpose of ensuring safety.

The fact you are in distress isn't going to keep the guys in the
black helicopters or F-16's from trying to intercept you.

Maybe, but that has nothing to do with the legality of doing so.



God you're fjukkwit.



Bertie

Larry Dighera wrote in
:


Is this new change TFR wording the result of our new Administrator
who, unlike the previous one, holds an airmens certificate?

While I believe those airmen who fail to get a briefing immediately
before departing, or who fail to concern themselves with current
airspace information published on Sectional Charts, or otherwise
display wanton negligence and disregard for FAA regulations may
deserve criminal prosecution, such criminal charges against a pilot
whose inadvertent violation of a TFR results in no harm nor hazard to
persons nor property seems inappropriate to me.


The very nature of a TFR makes this ludicrous. It's a TEMPORARY flight
restriction. Prior to 9/11, they were used for things like giving rescue
crews room to do their job after an accident or emergency (keeping
newscopters and other rubberneckers out of their way).

Aside from the new post-9/11 TFRs (ie: President beacons and sporting
events, etc) TFRs cannot be predicted preflight in many circumstances. To
prosecute for violating them is insane.

The result will be that pilots will be so afraid to violate a TFR that they
will always call for briefings every time they get in the plane (even if
it's a return trip from a $200 hamburger and they already had weather from
an hour before), and they will always use ATC services (flight following,
etc.).

The inevitable result of course is that our ATC and FSS systems will get so
intensely congested that flight delays will be blamed on unavailability of
services, and airlines will want to create laws to force all pilots to pay
for the services that they now are forced to abuse.

Oh, wait. Maybe we're already here.

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:30:55 GMT, Judah wrote in
:

The result will be that pilots will be so afraid to violate a TFR that they
will always call for briefings every time they get in the plane (even if
it's a return trip from a $200 hamburger and they already had weather from
an hour before),...

The way I read it, CFR Title 14, Part 91, § 91.103 requires exactly
that.

JGalban wrote:

Generally speaking, if you avoid flying over areas that are actively on
fire and producing smoke, no one will bother you.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

*glider guy suit on*

Dang,
In our inverted summer sky in NCal valley, thems the only spots we can find
lift. : /

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200710/1

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:30:55 GMT, Judah wrote in
:

The result will be that pilots will be so afraid to violate a TFR that
they will always call for briefings every time they get in the plane
(even if it's a return trip from a $200 hamburger and they already had
weather from an hour before),...

The way I read it, CFR Title 14, Part 91, § 91.103 requires exactly
that.

Yeah. It's a joke.

It's self-destructing, like almost everything else in public policy in this
country these days.

Ron Natalie wrote:

I wouldn't bet my skin, tin, or ticket on that one.
The fact you are in distress isn't going to keep the guys in the
black helicopters or F-16's from trying to intercept you.
The FAA's track record on emergency authority isn't as iron clad
as you would like. The FAA has decided that if you get into the
emergency by your own screw up then they will still blast you for
the resulting deviations.

No arguement there. You're going to be held responsible if you screw up.
That's nothing new. Once you have the emergency, I think the presence of a
TFR is going to be a non-issue. I think the FAA would have a hard time
pressing the case that you deliberately violated a TFR if you'd declared an
emergency beforehand. The criminal violation that we're talking about refers
to a deliberate violation. If you did something dumb like run out of fuel
and were forced to come down in a TFR, I have a hard time seeing criminal
charges being pressed (although I'll agree that it's not out of the realm of
possibility).

As I said, I dropped smack into the middle of a TFR (not a political /
security one) after an engine failure and the FAA didn't even mention the TFR.
It's not like I could have gone somewhere else.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200710/1

C J Campbell wrote:
No one has been shot down by black helicopters or F-16s. Imagine the
fallout if someone were.

Not in the U.S. - yet. This incident happened in 2001 in Peru and the
CIA allegedly was involved:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...18/ai_75089670
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...gewanted=print

"Peru's air force denied April 23 that it did anything wrong in an
incident that led to the death of a missionary and her daughter when
their plane was shot down April 20 in the South American country. But
friends and relatives of the missionaries said they were fired on
without warning.

A pontoon-equipped single-engine Cessna carrying missionaries affiliated
with the Pennsylvania-based association of Baptists for World Evangelism
was forced to crash-land in the Amazon River after a Peruvian fighter
jet opened fire on the plane, which it mistakenly thought was
transporting illegal drugs. Missionary Veronica Bowers and her
seven-month-old daughter, Charity, were killed. Pilot Kevin Donaldson
underwent surgery after being seriously wounded in both legs in the
incident. Reportedly, the jet strafed the survivors as they clung to the
plane's burning wreckage in the river."

Here's a followup story some months later of the investigation findings:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../02/se.02.html