Spins

This spin entry was different. *There I was, about a seventy-degree left bank,
pulling hard on the stick to impress my buddy in the back seat, and WHAM. *Ol'
N1660G snapped to the right, went inverted, and tucked into a whirling dervish
of an upright spin. *

Yikes.

Okay. Do you think you'd have saved your skins if you had not taken it
upon yourself to get the extra spin training? What if you'd never
recovered from a spin before?

I admit that the prospect of death wonderfully concentrates the mind.
Still, practice makes better. No practice, well ...

wrote in
:

This spin entry was different. *There I was, about a seventy-degree
left
bank,
pulling hard on the stick to impress my buddy in the back seat, and
WHAM.
*Ol'
N1660G snapped to the right, went inverted, and tucked into a
whirling der
vish
of an upright spin. *

Yikes.

Okay. Do you think you'd have saved your skins if you had not taken it
upon yourself to get the extra spin training? What if you'd never
recovered from a spin before?

I admit that the prospect of death wonderfully concentrates the mind.
Still, practice makes better. No practice, well ...



But if you have no idea what is going on your chances are next to zilch.

The typicl spin accident, if there is such a thing, is the famous
overcooked turn onto final. You're at 400 feet or so, you're looking at
the end of the runway, let the speed bleed off a bit and you bank too
much and pull too hard whilst simultaneously trying to rudder it into
line with the runway. Next thig is a wing drops and the nose with it.
"What caused that?" you think. Now the airplane might not be rotating
much and your mind is now turned to a reptilian wire of instinct. You
aren't going to mentally turn to page 179 in Kershner and remember the
procedure for recovery because the verbal and logical part of your brain
is too busy screaming OH ****!. No, the reptilian part, the one you
wired with training, is the part that is going to save your bacon. Thing
is, you have to have wired it in the first place.. That is what all
training is for...

Oh and sorry, I know you were asking Ron, but I was on a roll!

Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
:

...
The typicl spin accident, if there is such a thing, is the famous
overcooked turn onto final.

I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Geoff

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
:

...
The typicl spin accident, if there is such a thing, is the famous
overcooked turn onto final.

I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Geoff


What gets them isn't really the turn per se, but the way that turn is
flown. The combination of the increased stall speed due to the turn
coupled with some excess inside rudder causing a skid as the stall
breaks is a perfect pro-spin setup. The two ingredients for spin are
present; stall and a yaw rate coupled simultaneously .
You can get away with a tight low turn if it's coordinated and you feed
in enough power to offset the drag rise; or even better yet an unloaded
tight descending turn if some altitude and some radius need to be
scrubbed off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-) but it's that lack
of attention to the extra needed thrust as the drag rises in the turn
and cheating a bit with inside rudder to "force that nose around that
will get you killed.


--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
:

...
The typicl spin accident, if there is such a thing, is the famous
overcooked turn onto final.

I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Geoff
What gets them isn't really the turn per se, but the way that turn is
flown. The combination of the increased stall speed due to the turn
coupled with some excess inside rudder causing a skid as the stall breaks
is a perfect pro-spin setup. The two ingredients for spin are present;
stall and a yaw rate coupled simultaneously .
You can get away with a tight low turn if it's coordinated and you feed in
enough power to offset the drag rise; or even better yet an unloaded tight
descending turn if some altitude and some radius need to be scrubbed
off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-) but it's that lack of attention
to the extra needed thrust as the drag rises in the turn and cheating a
bit with inside rudder to "force that nose around that will get you
killed.


--
Dudley Henriques

Since I probably qualify as hopelessly unqualified, and also since both of
you have already described this in different words, I should probably "keep
my mouth shut"; but from all I have heard, things happen much more suddenly
as part of an uncoordinated accellerated stall.

I never personally got to explore the accellerated stall portion of the
envelope, and only had an accellerated stall demonstrated to me once. That
once was by a pilot who was so proficient, smooth and coordinated that the
stall was a complete non-event and we simply flew out of it and continued
the turn as though nothing had happened. And, yes, this was in a Cessna 152
that was appropriately certified for that sort of work. However, viewed in
another manner, the guy (who was a high time instructor) would have been the
perfect candidate to train new instrucors to let their students kill them...

When I resume flying, as I plan to do, I also plan to more fully explore the
accelerated stall area of the envelope--in an appropriate trainer of course.

Peter

Peter Dohm wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
:

...
The typicl spin accident, if there is such a thing, is the famous
overcooked turn onto final.
I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Geoff
What gets them isn't really the turn per se, but the way that turn is
flown. The combination of the increased stall speed due to the turn
coupled with some excess inside rudder causing a skid as the stall breaks
is a perfect pro-spin setup. The two ingredients for spin are present;
stall and a yaw rate coupled simultaneously .
You can get away with a tight low turn if it's coordinated and you feed in
enough power to offset the drag rise; or even better yet an unloaded tight
descending turn if some altitude and some radius need to be scrubbed
off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-) but it's that lack of attention
to the extra needed thrust as the drag rises in the turn and cheating a
bit with inside rudder to "force that nose around that will get you
killed.


--
Dudley Henriques

Since I probably qualify as hopelessly unqualified, and also since both of
you have already described this in different words, I should probably "keep
my mouth shut"; but from all I have heard, things happen much more suddenly
as part of an uncoordinated accellerated stall.

I never personally got to explore the accellerated stall portion of the
envelope, and only had an accellerated stall demonstrated to me once. That
once was by a pilot who was so proficient, smooth and coordinated that the
stall was a complete non-event and we simply flew out of it and continued
the turn as though nothing had happened. And, yes, this was in a Cessna 152
that was appropriately certified for that sort of work. However, viewed in
another manner, the guy (who was a high time instructor) would have been the
perfect candidate to train new instrucors to let their students kill them...

When I resume flying, as I plan to do, I also plan to more fully explore the
accelerated stall area of the envelope--in an appropriate trainer of course.

Peter



Good idea. Reason for this is that the majority of accidental stall
incidents will be accelerated. It takes a pilot seriously asleep to
gently allow an airplane to stall accidentally at power off and 1g.
Accelerated stall is an area of flight that all pilots should be
completely familiar with.
I spent MUCH more time with accelerated stall than simple power off
stalls at 1g with every student I taught to fly. I only wish all
instructors did the same.

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
better yet an unloaded tight descending turn if some altitude and some
radius need to be scrubbed off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-)

Why not, Dudley? This is a maneuver I use quite often because I like to
make power-off landings.

Am I on the verge of augering in without realizing it?

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
better yet an unloaded tight descending turn if some altitude and some
radius need to be scrubbed off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-)

Why not, Dudley? This is a maneuver I use quite often because I like to
make power-off landings.

Am I on the verge of augering in without realizing it?

Good question. Let me explain.

In posting on the forums where student pilots might be involved, when
discussing things like unloaded descending turns from base to final, I
try not to post comments without a "warning" of some kind. The reason I
do this is that although well trained pilots can and indeed make turnds
like this all day long in perfect safety, they are still in the category
of a tight turn made at low altitude and I don't want anyone getting
hurt trying to something based on what I have said on a forum.
Becoming capable to make a turn like we are discussing is part of a
pilot's training that should be accomplished in the airplane with a
competent instructor there on the job to make sure the pilot learns how
to make such a turn properly. Once this is accomplished, most pilots
won't even think about making that turn. They will know from where they
are in the pattern, how tight the turn has to be, and whether or not the
conditions are within safe parameters or outside safe parameters.
In other words, it's safe enough if done properly as I'm sure you are
aware, but only after a thorough examination of the factors involved.

Just as an aside; I always covered late base to final turns with my own
students before solo!

--
Dudley Henriques

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote

I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Someone did that at OSH a few years back. 2001?
--
Jim in NC

On Jan 17, 8:06 pm, "Morgans" wrote:
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote



I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Someone did that at OSH a few years back. 2001?
--
Jim in NC

And another in Arlington in about '97. I saw that. One guy dead.
Fooling around with a big ultralight, taking off short, climbing
steeply and making a rather steep turn to return to the runway. Did
this several times until it went bad.

Dan