glider simulators

On May 4, 6:57 am, Tony Verhulst wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:
... There's a
whole hobby of building realistic cockpits to go with this simulator.

Would those hobbyists have web sites?

Tony V

Here's one for starters: (major link reconstruction needed; not a
glider cockpit, but...)
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...icial%26sa%3DG

I have been working on a related project, to use one's own sailplane
as a cockpit for a simulator, with one's own instruments/controls.
What I am designing is a piece of hardware that will generate the
associated dynamic/static/TE/and capacity pressure values that would
exist during "in flight" conditions (Condor outputs standard sim
signals which could easily be translated into their associated
pressure values). These pressures can be fed to an actual instrument
panel, making the instruments read correct for their given simulated
condition quite effectively. Since Condor also outputs NEMA data,
flight computers/nav hardware can also be active. This will be used in
conjunction with little (sugar cube sized) independent self powered
pizeo gyros with bluetooth (or some other sort of RF) transmitting
capabilities that would each be placed on the extremities of all the
cockpit controls. The transmitted signals would all be received by a
device that would be converting the gyro's movements into standard
simulator control inputs that would be fed back into Condor for your
flight inputs.

To make clear my project goals in case it's still vague: I want to be
able to use my own glider with it's controls and instruments to fly on
the simulator. This wold be achieved by pulling the plane into the
"drive in theater" (a screen on a large wall with a projector set up)
and connect the pneumatic interface to my plane's pneumatic system and
put the pizeo gyros described above on their respective controls. Go
through a calibration sequence to define the full movements of the
controls, buckle in and begin checklist...Once this is closer to being
finished I will also work on the feedback issue, which I already have
several ideas. This glider in this setup could easily be changed to
another ship so long as flight data for it exists on Condor (very easy
if it already has a Winter quick pneumatic disconnect plug...) If
anyone that reads this finds it intriguing and would like to help, pm
me.

Paul

I wrote a nice response but can't seem to post it... I'll keep
trying...

--Noel

Sorry for multiple posts - Google isn't telling me why it won't post
my response so I'm breaking it into pieces to find out what's causing
the problem
----------

The Forums on the Condor website area great source of info for this
stuff!

Force feedback controls are only marginally useful, IMHO.

Any standard joystick with a few buttons is plenty good enough. I
_strongly_ recommend against getting a "twist" joystick, as
controlling a glider with one of those is too distracting (and can
introduce bad habits).

I also strongly advise people to go out and buy a set of CH Pro Pedals
for rudder control (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/pedals.html).
They're not cheap (~$150), but they'll last a lifetime and are very
precise. Use them along with a simple joystick and you're all set for
some great Condor flying.

Joystick features that are nice to have: A "hat" for view control,
and a "throttle" control for moving the spoilers. I also like a
joystick with at least 5 or 6 buttons (so I can put flap and trim
controls on the joystick).

Optional extra for the technologically advanced: NaturalPoint
"TrackIR" (http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/). This is an infrared
camera that you put on your computer monitor. It watches a reflective
head-band or headset-clip that you wear, and uses your head movements
to let you "look around" freely.

I recommend people get comfortable with Condor first before adding
this layer of complexity and configuration - but once you get used to
it, its nice! I mean, how many times in a flight simulator have you
wished that you could just turn your head a little to keep an eye on
the runway threshold out the side of the airplane while on downwind or
turning base? This lets you do that effortlessly (and so much more).
But it does take some work to set up and fine-tune for your individual
tastes - so start with the joystick "hat" and then progress to this if
you want.

Take care,

--Noel
(PIlot and former computer-game developer)

P.S. I also recommend a wide-screen LCD monitor. Human vision is
attuned to wide peripheral vision and standard screens don't do a poor
job of matching the eye. Even a small (17" or 19") wide-screen
monitor is an improvement over a medium-sized "standard" monitor, when
it comes to simulating movement.

On May 4, 9:03 am, "noel.wade" wrote:

P.S. I also recommend a wide-screen LCD monitor. Human vision is
attuned to wide peripheral vision and standard screens don't do a poor
job of matching the eye. Even a small (17" or 19") wide-screen

Gah, correction: Standard screens _don't do a GOOD job_ of matching
the eye... :-P

--Noel

"noel.wade" wrote in message
...
Joystick features that are nice to have: A "hat" for view control,
and a "throttle" control for moving the spoilers. I also like a
joystick with at least 5 or 6 buttons (so I can put flap and trim
controls on the joystick).

Optional extra for the technologically advanced: NaturalPoint
"TrackIR" (http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/). This is an infrared
camera that you put on your computer monitor. It watches a reflective
head-band or headset-clip that you wear, and uses your head movements
to let you "look around" freely.



..... so while you are looking at the wall instead of your wingtip, someone
else in the room can see what you ought to be looking at?

This would only be useful if you have Circlorama screens (whatever happened
to Circlorama?) or a pair of VR glasses.
:-)

Hi,

You would think so, I asked the same question to a user. He said that the
IR units work OK with a single monitor. You can turn your head a little to
the left and keep your eyes on the screen. It doesn't seem like it would
work well to me, but it supposedly works better then you would think.

Paul Remde

"Peter Wyld" wrote in message
news

"noel.wade" wrote in message
...
Joystick features that are nice to have: A "hat" for view control,
and a "throttle" control for moving the spoilers. I also like a
joystick with at least 5 or 6 buttons (so I can put flap and trim
controls on the joystick).

Optional extra for the technologically advanced: NaturalPoint
"TrackIR" (http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/). This is an infrared
camera that you put on your computer monitor. It watches a reflective
head-band or headset-clip that you wear, and uses your head movements
to let you "look around" freely.



.... so while you are looking at the wall instead of your wingtip, someone
else in the room can see what you ought to be looking at?

This would only be useful if you have Circlorama screens (whatever
happened to Circlorama?) or a pair of VR glasses.
:-)

.... so while you are looking at the wall instead of your wingtip, someone
else in the room can see what you ought to be looking at?

The TrackIR amplifies your head movements. So a tiny turn of your
head can equate to looking out the side of the aircraft in the
simulator. Its a little odd at first to keep your eyes on the screen
while you turn your head - but if you set the amplification rate up to
the right level its really not a problem (we're talking maybe 5 or 10
degrees of head movement) - just takes about 5 minutes to get used
to.

Check out the demo videos on the NaturalPoint website.

Also note that I *do* state its best to get comfortable with the
simulator and everything before adding this piece. But the ability to
easily look around adds a lot if you have the patience to set it up
properly.

On a slightly different note: I have done a lot of experimenting and
found that longtime pilots have a *much* harder time with simulators
than new pilots. After doing some unscientific research and gathering
feedback, I have come to believe that pilots who have flown for a long
time and never used a simulator get easily frustrated by the lack of
physical / kinesthetic feedback, and the lack of familiarity of flying
over strange terrain in a strange glider. They're so used to
"feeling" the aircraft and flying in their local airspace with known
references that they have a hard time just flying the plane based on
the sight-picture and the instruments and the visible angles to the
ground. Becuase they're so used to being good pilots flying in a
skilled manner, having a hard time in the simulator tends to frustrate
and/or embarrass these experienced pilots - and as a result they have
a dislike or disdain for the simulator.

Take care,

--Noel

noel.wade wrote:
On a slightly different note: I have done a lot of experimenting and
found that longtime pilots have a *much* harder time with simulators
than new pilots. After doing some unscientific research and gathering
feedback, I have come to believe that pilots who have flown for a long
time and never used a simulator get easily frustrated by the lack of
physical / kinesthetic feedback, and the lack of familiarity of flying
over strange terrain in a strange glider. They're so used to
"feeling" the aircraft and flying in their local airspace with known
references that they have a hard time just flying the plane based on
the sight-picture and the instruments and the visible angles to the
ground. Becuase they're so used to being good pilots flying in a
skilled manner, having a hard time in the simulator tends to frustrate
and/or embarrass these experienced pilots - and as a result they have
a dislike or disdain for the simulator.

I've had a similar experience to this, except sort of backwards.

I used to do a lot of flying in X-Plane, in all kinds of different
aircraft. (X-Plane isn't really the best at simulating anything, but it
simulates almost everything, which is its big advantage.) I was pretty
good at it, although I'm sure I did a lot of non-standard things. And in
fact flying the gliders in X-Plane is one of the things that got me into
real soaring. I had a lot of fun doing crazy things in the simulator, then
thought, hey, this is something I could actually enjoy in real life.

I don't use X-Plane that much anymore. Somehow doing regular flying in
reality makes the sim seem less fun than it once was....

But I still fire it up on occasion. And the thing that always amuses me
when I do is that I'm really *bad* at it. Even flying gliders, even flying
types that I fly in reality, in locations that I fly in reality, I
totally stink up the place.

Part of this is because my controls setup is very poor. I didn't put in
very much money at all, so the result reflects that. But I used the same
controls before and was much better! I certainly have trouble with the
lack of physical feedback, poor control feel, and narrow field of view,
even though I was more or less fine with them before.

In the end they're just two different skills. You can make them closer by
putting in more money to have a better setup, but it still ends up being
different skills. An experienced pilot who jumps into a sim thinking that
he should be able to instantly master it will likely be disappointed
because of this.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

"noel.wade" wrote in message
...

.... so while you are looking at the wall instead of your wingtip,
someone
else in the room can see what you ought to be looking at?

The TrackIR amplifies your head movements. So a tiny turn of your
head can equate to looking out the side of the aircraft in the
simulator. Its a little odd at first to keep your eyes on the screen
while you turn your head - but if you set the amplification rate up to
the right level its really not a problem (we're talking maybe 5 or 10
degrees of head movement) - just takes about 5 minutes to get used
to.

Check out the demo videos on the NaturalPoint website.

Also note that I *do* state its best to get comfortable with the
simulator and everything before adding this piece. But the ability to
easily look around adds a lot if you have the patience to set it up
properly.

On a slightly different note: I have done a lot of experimenting and
found that longtime pilots have a *much* harder time with simulators
than new pilots. After doing some unscientific research and gathering
feedback, I have come to believe that pilots who have flown for a long
time and never used a simulator get easily frustrated by the lack of
physical / kinesthetic feedback, and the lack of familiarity of flying
over strange terrain in a strange glider. They're so used to
"feeling" the aircraft and flying in their local airspace with known
references that they have a hard time just flying the plane based on
the sight-picture and the instruments and the visible angles to the
ground. Becuase they're so used to being good pilots flying in a
skilled manner, having a hard time in the simulator tends to frustrate
and/or embarrass these experienced pilots - and as a result they have
a dislike or disdain for the simulator.

Take care,

--Noel

Same experience here.

My take on the frustrations of experienced pilots is that they have never
learned to use their eyes correctly. Somewhat counterintuitively, it's
posible to fly a glider largely by feel and with little reliance on visual
inputs for anything other than navigation. Frustration with a PC flight
simulator simply discloses this shortcoming.

A computer flight simulator forces a pilot to use vision for things like
instrument scan and attitude control. This can be very frustrating until
the pilots visual skills come up to speed.

A second issue is that, to a greater degree than in a real glider, a PC
flight simulator requires the pilot to anticipate the aerodynamic response
of the simulated glider. For example, knowing that raising the nose
relative to the horizon WILL result in lower airspeed provides for very
precise airspeed control. Fortunately the flight dynamics model used in
Condor is VERY VERY good.

Bill D