*********A DEFENCE FOR MXMORAN***********

On Mar 3, 5:15*am, Ibby wrote:

First priority is NOT talking to ATC but retaining control of the
aircraft. *If it is decending rapidly the FIRST button I would engage
is Altitude Hold which will start the aircraft to level out. *This can
be easily reached without moving the Pilot or FO. *The pilots can be
moved in a moment and ATC can be contacted once you have 'control'.

Again, don't forget that human part. I have no clue where the
altitude hold is. You may know from the hours and hours of sim
experiences, but in the real world, you expect me to find a button
that will automatically level the plane. There are billions of
buttons to look at.

The radios are more than likely already tuned to the nearest
controller. *The major part of the FMC will now be 'unimportant' as
you will no longer be required to continue on your planned route. *The
Mode Control Panel (the buttons and dials on the glareshield) take
precedence over the FMC. *For the FMC to control the flight director
two buttons require engaging - LNAV (Lateral Navigation) which

I drive a single engine land airplane. You think I have any clue what
you are talking about? You are in a jetliner plane about to buy the
farm. No common Joe, or even a pilot like myself will be there to
"save the day" All the simulation in the world won't take away the
vast array of gauges and dials, and buttons for me to find the
altitude hold button in a reasonable time. Imagine yourself over the
radio talking to someone and saying find the altitude hold button and
guiding them to the right place? Oh yeah we talk in a walkie talkie
world, which slows down communications. Only one person talks at one
time. You think John Q public knows this? IF THEY EVEN find the PTT
button!


I agree and stated before the majority of us would literally be
crapping ourselves. *The sim DOES help however in understanding the
'digitised' controls and knobs. *When I took my first flying lesson in
a Cessna 152 (yes basic in comparision) but it was exactly the same as
the payware aircraft I bought for the sim. *

It doesn't for me when I am in an emergency situation trying to save
my skin in a plane I never sat in the front seat.. Too many buttons,
remember for me to find that right button you want me to push, pull or
twist? I fly a Sundowner, which has a vast array of buttons to a non
pilot. Could / would they know where my autopilot is by description.
I seriously doubt it!

As stated before the majority of the FMC is obsolete and the aircraft
can be controlled via the MCP and the autopilot. *ATC will quite often
vector a pilot with differing headings, speed restrictions and
altitude constraints to that on the FMC flightplan but in most cases
the PIC will use the MCP to make these temporary changes. *

Uhh, I am in a plane totally unfamiliar. You will instruct me to use
the MCP. I have no clue what that is. I have fear for my life, you
think you would be able to walk me through which panel is the MCP? I
doubt it. Remember, the audience you are talking to is a non pilot in
the emergency situation we are talking about. You wouldn't say push a
button on the MCP. You would say it in plain English and describe it
in plain English.

When APP is pressed all 3 autopilots are engaged and thus the autoland
is armed. ATC can instruct you to reduce your airspeed via the control
knob and extend the flaps, landing gear can be lowered and landing
lights and strobes switched on prior to Flaps 20 with continual
slowing using the autothrottle system and further extension of the
flaps.

ATC seperates traffic. Remember, I am descending through 10000 feet,
time is not on my side. I don't think they will know what control
knob for me to push, pull or push, and even if they did, they just
can't point to it, they would need to be able to describe it precisely
within the 1000's of other knobs that sit in front of me.

That's how the simulator can help. *They have 'big' knobs and 'little'
knobs as per the real aircraft

But remember the vast array of buttons and knobs. You have to find
the component first! I never been in a 747.

Let me give you a real deal example of how something electronic can
draw a brain fart, and I posted my experiences. I was in a plane with
a Garmin 330 transponder. Transponder was not sending the right
altitude. I did not know how to stop Mode C. Something very simple
became a major traffic hazard around me.

On my transponder, I have a on setting where it will transmit Mode A,
not C. Easy enough for me to do. Now, I tell you stop my mode C by
twisting the knob from alt to on. Would you be able to figure that
out in the vast array of gauges, buttons and knobs? You have never
been in my plane and all your vast knowlege of a 747 is now tossed out
the window. I would suspect, eventually you will find it from your
simulation knowlege, but the average non pilot will have no clue what
or where the transponder is much less turn a knob from alt to on.

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X. *

Did you use payware aircraft or the default as there can be a world of
difference depending on the vendor

You are missing my point. All the simulation in the world doesn't
help me when the rubber meets the road. Simulation is great for
learning procedures. It will not save my skin in a 747. As stated
earlier, the plane in the approach phase probably has not been
configured for autoland. I doubt anybody would be able to tell John Q
public which panel to look at to set it up for autoland in the short
time before the farm is bought..

*I'm
NOT a qualified pilot and have never flown yet in IMC conditions. *I
agree hand flying an aircraft in the simulator in IMC can be difficult
as you have zero sensation of movement.

You have it backwards..... It's the sensation of movement that will
make you a lawn dart and learning to ignore that sensation of movement
is the key.

MSFS makes simulated IMC a walk in the park on my computer. I have
never gotten the leans from MSFS.

Again, talk to a pilot that is instrument rated. Until you do so, you
have no clue what flying is all about just on what you say above..

BeechSundowner writes:

Again, don't forget that human part. I have no clue where the
altitude hold is. You may know from the hours and hours of sim
experiences, but in the real world, you expect me to find a button
that will automatically level the plane. There are billions of
buttons to look at.

No, there are only a dozen or so, and they are clearly marked, and all you
need is someone to tell you where to look.

In this case, it's pretty easy: Look along the top of the glare shield until
you find the word ALT, then look down until you find the word HOLD, and press
that button.

I suppose it might seem complex to the pilot of a tiny plane, but it's not
really that difficult.

I drive a single engine land airplane. You think I have any clue what
you are talking about?

No, I don't. And it's really hard to comment on things that one doesn't have
a clue about, isn't it?

You are in a jetliner plane about to buy the farm.

No. Incapacitation of the pilots does not cause the plane to crash. This
isn't a Piper Cub.

You may wish to review the accident report for Helios Airways Flight 522,
which illustrates what happens when the pilots are both incapacitated in a
modern airliner.

No common Joe, or even a pilot like myself will be there to
"save the day" All the simulation in the world won't take away the
vast array of gauges and dials, and buttons for me to find the
altitude hold button in a reasonable time.

Anyone of reasonable intelligence can find it within seconds when told where
to look (and eventually even if not told).

Imagine yourself over the
radio talking to someone and saying find the altitude hold button and
guiding them to the right place?

Very easy.

Oh yeah we talk in a walkie talkie world, which slows down communications.

How?

Only one person talks at one time.

In a normal conversation, only one person talks at one time.

It doesn't for me when I am in an emergency situation trying to save
my skin in a plane I never sat in the front seat.. Too many buttons,
remember for me to find that right button you want me to push, pull or
twist? I fly a Sundowner, which has a vast array of buttons to a non
pilot. Could / would they know where my autopilot is by description.
I seriously doubt it!

I don't. But perhaps we move in different circles.

Uhh, I am in a plane totally unfamiliar. You will instruct me to use
the MCP. I have no clue what that is. I have fear for my life, you
think you would be able to walk me through which panel is the MCP? I
doubt it.

Well, if you happen to be the one who replaces the pilots, I suppose the
flight is doomed, based on what you are saying. But a lot of other people
could handle it. Do not assume that everyone shares your handicaps.

You wouldn't say push a
button on the MCP. You would say it in plain English and describe it
in plain English.

Find ALT along the top edge of the instrument panel, near the middle. Just
below that is a button marked HOLD. Press that.

Elapsed time: 2 seconds.

ATC seperates traffic. Remember, I am descending through 10000 feet,
time is not on my side.

Once you press ALT HOLD, you are not descending any more.

I don't think they will know what control knob for me to push, pull
or push, and even if they did, they just can't point to it, they would
need to be able to describe it precisely within the 1000's of other
knobs that sit in front of me.

Do you panic easily? I could explain to a ten-year-old where to find the
button, and he'd find it and press it without any difficulty. (In fact, I've
seen ten-year-olds following instructions quite well in full-motion sims.)

But remember the vast array of buttons and knobs.

The array is not vast, and everything is clearly marked, precisely to make it
all easy to figure out.

I never been in a 747.

So I've surmised.

Let me give you a real deal example of how something electronic can
draw a brain fart, and I posted my experiences. I was in a plane with
a Garmin 330 transponder. Transponder was not sending the right
altitude. I did not know how to stop Mode C. Something very simple
became a major traffic hazard around me.

Not knowing how to operate the equipment in your aircraft sounds like a FAR
violation to me.

On my transponder, I have a on setting where it will transmit Mode A,
not C. Easy enough for me to do. Now, I tell you stop my mode C by
twisting the knob from alt to on. Would you be able to figure that
out in the vast array of gauges, buttons and knobs?

Sure.

You have never been in my plane and all your vast knowlege of a 747
is now tossed out the window.

All I need is someone who knows the inside of your plane.

I would suspect, eventually you will find it from your
simulation knowlege, but the average non pilot will have no clue what
or where the transponder is much less turn a knob from alt to on.

That's why someone else has to tell him this.

You are missing my point.

You're not answering the question, which I assume means that you haven't used
any payware aircraft. So you've never been in a real 747, you've never used a
decent simulator of a 747, and you apparently have not read anything on the
747. And yet you're arguing about whether or not someone can land it.

Why is it okay for you to comment on such things with so little knowledge
thereof, if it isn't okay for me to comment on them with a much better
knowledge base?

All the simulation in the world doesn't help me when the rubber meets
the road.

Simulation helps a great deal. Simulation saves lives, in fact, by allowing
pilots to practice things that would be too rare or expensive or dangerous to
practice in real life.

Simulation is great for learning procedures. It will not save my skin
in a 747.

It would probably save mine.

As stated
earlier, the plane in the approach phase probably has not been
configured for autoland. I doubt anybody would be able to tell John Q
public which panel to look at to set it up for autoland in the short
time before the farm is bought.

It's not hard to configure for autoland.

You have it backwards..... It's the sensation of movement that will
make you a lawn dart and learning to ignore that sensation of movement
is the key.

When you are in a sim that doesn't move, you learn very quickly to depend on
instruments alone.

Again, talk to a pilot that is instrument rated. Until you do so, you
have no clue what flying is all about just on what you say above..

I'm talking to a pilot who largely admits having no clue about 747s, but that
doesn't stop him from talking about them.

Ibby writes:

I fully appreciate in IMC conditions you
use your instruments fully and don't rely on what you can/cannot see
outside.

Sensations are largely useless in VMC, too. They are not any more reliable
just because visibility is good. The reality is that you depend upon your
eyes in VMC. Close your eyes and fly by the seat of your pants alone, and
you'll be in trouble soon enough.

A big question asked by both myself
and MX is have those on here who have tried MSFS done it with good
quality commercial addon aircraft which are COMPLETELY different to
that which comes as standard on an FSX installation.

I seriously doubt it.

The default 747
is total **** and a kid could operate it compared to the highly
complex PMDG models.

It took me about two hours to figure out how to start a 737 with the PMDG
model. Most of that time was spent reading manuals. Fortunately, now I can
do it from memory, most of the time (the 747, 767, and 737 all have
differences that can get confusing, so I have to fly them all periodically to
maintain some semblance of currency).

BeechSundowner writes:

Yes, you are right in the above about reaching for a switch and and
keeping the plane level, but there is more to it. Your inner ear
balance gets messed up inside a cloud.

The aircraft's avionics don't, however, and so, once you press the button,
you're straight and level, no matter what sensations you might feel.

Large airliners tend to move very sedately, also, so the sensations are far
less noticeable.

I will keep
repeating, IMC in a cloud is something to be experienced. Depending
on what you like (or not like), you would never look at MSFS the
same. MSFS is only a 2D world once you get the opportunity to touch a
cloud

How much IFR have you flown in MSFS?

Everything outside the window in a real aircraft is 2D, except during take-off
and landing. Depth perception only works out to a distance of 100 feet or so.
Everything else is flat.

Defending the use and benefits to learn what each instruments do, and
learning IFR procedures, I absolutey agree with you. Defending the
use and learning how to fly an airplane, land an airplane on MSFX,
sorry, the two just don't intertwine.

Knowing what the instruments do and knowing IFR procedures is a huge part of
flying the airplane. In fact, it's most of the job for commercial air
transports. Airliners are hardly ever even flown by hand, and they are never
flown under VFR.

Nobody will learn how to land an airplane on MSFX.

Some people will, but they have to start with an open mind.

Mxsmanic wrote:
BeechSundowner writes:

Again, don't forget that human part. I have no clue where the
altitude hold is. You may know from the hours and hours of sim
experiences, but in the real world, you expect me to find a button
that will automatically level the plane. There are billions of
buttons to look at.

No, there are only a dozen or so, and they are clearly marked, and all you
need is someone to tell you where to look.

Wrong, try again.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgi...4Q8/0314046/L/

Not shown are the dozens of switches and buttons on the overhead
panel.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Mar 4, 10:54*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
BeechSundowner writes:
Yes, you are right in the above about reaching for a switch and and
keeping the plane level, but there is more to it. *Your inner ear
balance gets messed up inside a cloud.

The aircraft's avionics don't, however, and so, once you press the button,
you're straight and level, no matter what sensations you might feel.

Large airliners tend to move very sedately, also, so the sensations are far
less noticeable.

I will keep
repeating, IMC in a cloud is something to be experienced. *Depending
on what you like (or not like), you would never look at MSFS the
same. *MSFS is only a 2D world once you get the opportunity to touch a
cloud

How much IFR have you flown in MSFS?

Everything outside the window in a real aircraft is 2D, except during take-off
and landing. *Depth perception only works out to a distance of 100 feet or so.
Everything else is flat.

Defending the use and benefits to learn what each instruments do, and
learning IFR procedures, I absolutey agree with you. *Defending the
use and learning how to fly an airplane, land an airplane on MSFX,
sorry, the two just don't intertwine.

Knowing what the instruments do and knowing IFR procedures is a huge part of
flying the airplane. *In fact, it's most of the job for commercial air
transports. *Airliners are hardly ever even flown by hand, and they are never
flown under VFR.

Nobody will learn how to land an airplane on MSFX.

Some people will, but they have to start with an open mind.

MX wrote


Everything outside the window in a real aircraft is 2D, except during take-off
and landing. Depth perception only works out to a distance of 100 feet or so.
Everything else is flat.

which is true enough IF ONE IS STATIONARY. If one is moving distance
and depth estimations are actually pretty easy. Even golfers can
estimate to within a fractional club (that would be about 10 or 15
feet) at distances out to two hundred yards or so, and pilots with
suitable experience see their landscape unfolding in what amounts to
three D. Fly over a mountain ridge then a valley and claim it's not
seen as 3D.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
BeechSundowner writes:

Yes, you are right in the above about reaching for a switch and and
keeping the plane level, but there is more to it. Your inner ear
balance gets messed up inside a cloud.

The aircraft's avionics don't, however, and so, once you press the button,
you're straight and level, no matter what sensations you might feel.

Large airliners tend to move very sedately, also, so the sensations are
far
less noticeable.



Man you're awesome, tell us more!

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Ibby writes:

I fully appreciate in IMC conditions you
use your instruments fully and don't rely on what you can/cannot see
outside.

Sensations are largely useless in VMC, too. They are not any more
reliable
just because visibility is good. The reality is that you depend upon your
eyes in VMC. Close your eyes and fly by the seat of your pants alone, and
you'll be in trouble soon enough.

A big question asked by both myself
and MX is have those on here who have tried MSFS done it with good
quality commercial addon aircraft which are COMPLETELY different to
that which comes as standard on an FSX installation.

I seriously doubt it.

The default 747
is total **** and a kid could operate it compared to the highly
complex PMDG models.

It took me about two hours to figure out how to start a 737 with the PMDG
model. Most of that time was spent reading manuals. Fortunately, now I
can
do it from memory, most of the time (the 747, 767, and 737 all have
differences that can get confusing, so I have to fly them all periodically
to
maintain some semblance of currency).

Damn you're delusional.

writes:

Wrong, try again.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgi...4Q8/0314046/L/

Looks just like the sim.

Not shown are the dozens of switches and buttons on the overhead
panel.

That's okay, I know what they are and what they do already.

a writes:

which is true enough IF ONE IS STATIONARY. If one is moving distance
and depth estimations are actually pretty easy.

If they were easy, then a lot less time would be spent in pilot training
warning pilots about how deceptive visual cues can be, and a lot less time
would be spent teaching various clever ways to try to estimate distances.

Even golfers can
estimate to within a fractional club (that would be about 10 or 15
feet) at distances out to two hundred yards or so, and pilots with
suitable experience see their landscape unfolding in what amounts to
three D. Fly over a mountain ridge then a valley and claim it's not
seen as 3D.

It's not seen as 3D. As I've said, depth perception only works to up to 100
feet or so. The rest depends on visual cues that may or may not be accurate.
Pilots who have misinterpreted the cues have regularly crashed and died.