German Club class championship calls a +500KM task!

On May 28, 6:48*am, wrote:
Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

Impressive - Tim's example rightly takes the wind out of the argument
that the US needs a separate Club Class based on the belief that Club
Class gliders can't go out on "big boy" tasks.

9B

"Andy" wrote in message
:

On May 28, 6:48 am, wrote:
Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

Impressive - Tim's example rightly takes the wind out of the argument
that the US needs a separate Club Class based on the belief that Club
Class gliders can't go out on "big boy" tasks.

9B

Andy, I don't follow your logic at all. Seems to me that it conversely
provides the reasons that we do need a separate class.

No one who has pushed for a separate club class here in the USA have
done so because they think that vintage or club class gliders cannot do
long, fast flights. The problem is that heretofore in the USA if you
had a ship that is less than the latest, then your only option is to fly
in Sports Class if you want to have a chance to be competitive. In
Sports Class, because of the usually very wide performance capabilities
of the entrants, the CD would have to call "Do It Yourself" tasks (MATs,
TAT's with very large circles, or in earlier days PST's [as the late
Bill Bartell called "Piece of Sh*t Tasks]). Hence, the contestants are
basically "on their on"... not on an assigned task. With a separate
Club Class with similar performance characteristics, the CD can indeed
call an Assigned Task where you do have "real racing".

Larry

*Hence, the contestants are
basically "on their on"... not on an assigned task. *With a separate
Club Class with similar performance characteristics, the CD can indeed
call an Assigned Task where you do have "real racing".

I don't want to get in to the big club class argument, but let's not
put too much stake in assigned tasks.

First, none of the other classes -- standard, 15, 18, open -- fly
assigned tasks that often anymore. I haven't been to a contest in 10
years that had more than one assigned task. Unless you get a different
pool of CDs, don't count on that to be much different in club class.

Second, you can achieve an "assigned task" in the MAT structure by
simply calling a lot of turnpoints. I don't know why this is not done
more often but it should be. You get all the joys of assigned task
racing -- start gate roulette, big gaggle flying, everyone on the same
course, leeching, watching your buddies go by, and so forth. But after
X hours everyone gets to go home rather than land out the bottom 25%
of the fleet.

There are lots of good reasons for a club class in the US, and a few
cautionary reasons against it, but "so we can fly assigned tasks"
doesn't seem all that pressing given the above two points.

John Cochrane BB

On May 29, 4:14*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
**Hence, the contestants are

basically "on their on"... not on an assigned task. *With a separate
Club Class with similar performance characteristics, the CD can indeed
call an Assigned Task where you do have "real racing".

I don't want to get in to the big club class argument, but let's not
put too much stake in assigned tasks.

First, none of the other classes -- standard, 15, 18, open -- fly
assigned tasks that often anymore. I haven't been to a contest in 10
years that had more than one assigned task. Unless you get a different
pool of CDs, don't count on that to be much different in club class.

Second, you can achieve an "assigned task" in the MAT structure by
simply calling a lot of turnpoints. *I don't know why this is not done
more often but it should be. You get all the joys of assigned task
racing -- start gate roulette, big gaggle flying, everyone on the same
course, leeching, watching your buddies go by, and so forth. But after
X hours everyone gets to go home rather than land out the bottom 25%
of the fleet.

There are lots of good reasons for a club class in the US, and a few
cautionary reasons against it, but "so we can fly assigned tasks"
doesn't seem all that pressing given the above two points.

John Cochrane BB

Well, I agree, but only to a point. It really is handy with sports
class
where you have a wide disparity of performance. I also agree that it
isn't called much any more, but I think there's a lot of people
that regret that trend. If the performance range of the ships is
fairly limited then the only reason to leave out turnpoints
compared to other competitors is because of lack of skill.
Also, if you look at what's being called in world club class
competitions a great many, if not the actual majority, of the
tasks called are assigned tasks, so we're ill preparing our team
members with how we're calling our contests.

I'll throw in one more point -- club class is the natural endpoint
to strong competitors who've learned the trade in sports class
(unless they can afford a latest generation racing plane). It
should also help encourage clubs to acquire the older generation
of planes and make them available to their members for
cross country and contest flying.

-- Matt

Just some stats from the last 2 Club Class WGCs:

WGC Rieti 2008 - http://wgcrieti.it/

Day 1 Racing Task 282.2 km - 2:30 h
Day 2 Racing Task 189.4 km - 1:44 h
Day 3 Racing Task 342.9 km - 3:38 h
Day 4 Speed Task 184.6/411.3 km 3:00 h - 3:03 h/347.0 km
Day 5 Racing Task 315.4 km - 3:10 h
Day 6 Speed Task 262.5/470.2 km 3:00 h - 3:01 h/362.1 km
Day 7 Speed Task 182.6/446.3 km 3:00 h - 2:58 h/345.6 km
Day 8 Racing Task 386.1 km - 4:02 h
Day 9 Racing Task 277.9 km - 2:54 h
Day 10 Speed Task 131.4/289.2 km 2:30 h - 2:29 h/255.3 km
Day 11 Racing Task 335.6 km - 3:00 h

Racing Task vs Speed Task 7:4


WGC Vinon-sur-Verdon 2006 - http://www.wgc2006.fr/

Day 1 Speed Task 168.4/367.1 km 1:30 h - 1:44 h/202.2 km
Day 2 Speed Task 172.8/350.1 km 1:45 h - 1:46 h/205.6 km
Day 3 Racing Task 291.5 km - 3:06 h
Day 4 Racing Task 405.4 km - 4:01 h
Day 5 Racing Task 406.6 km - 4:09 h
Day 6 Racing Task 376.0 km - 3:16 h
Day 7 Speed Task 223.3/426.8 km 2:45 h - 2:45 h/332.5 km
Day 8 Racing Task 498.8 km - 5:25 h
Day 9 Racing Task 315.1 km - 2:49 h
Day 10 Racing Task 328.3 km - 3:00 H
Day 11 Speed Task 311.3/620.2 km 3:00 h - 3:24 h/363.3 km

Racing Task vs Speed Task 7:4

Racing Task is international speak for Assigned Tasks, Speed Tasks for
international speak for Turn Area Tasks. The reason why the tasks in
Rieti were a little shorter than in Vinon is most likely the result of
the task area around Rieti being significantly more restricted than in
the French Alps around Vinon.

So if the US were finally to get serious about properly prepping and
selecting Pilots for Club Class WGCs Assigned Tasks should be the norm
and not the exception, tasks on a good day should be in the 300 to 500
km range with flight times possibly getting close to 5h on a booming
day... And then there is the issue of team flying being illegal in the
US while having been developed to an art especially by the Germans,
British and French...

Markus Graeber

One more quick note, the task for day 3 at the German Club Class
champs (today) was another Racing Task (Assigned Task) of 410.6 km,
completed by the winner in a Std. Libelle in 05:11:28 h @ 79,11 kph,
as mentioned in the initial post Day 2's Racing Task of 504.5 km was
also won by a Libelle in 05:16:20 h @ 95,68 kph. Would love to see
that in the US in a Club Class championship...

Markus Graeber

So if the US were finally to get serious about properly prepping and
selecting Pilots for Club Class WGCs Assigned Tasks should be the norm
and not the exception, tasks on a good day should be in the 300 to 500
km range with flight times possibly getting close to 5h on a booming
day... And then there is the issue of team flying being illegal in the
US while having been developed to an art especially by the Germans,
British and French...

Markus Graeber

Some comments:

1. Long tasks. The US rules already strongly encourage long tasks.
Nothing hurts like taking two weeks off of work and going to a
contest, only to sit on the ground under a great sky after a short
task call. See the rules below. The CD can and should call 5 hour plus
tasks whenever possible, under current rules. If CDs aren't, you don't
need a new class, and you don't need new rules. You need to complain
to the CD and tell him to follow the current rules!

Note also that assigned tasks and long tasks work counter to each
other. Assigned task guidelines says don't land out more than 25% of
the fleet. You can call a much longer time-limited task than you can
call an assigned task!

2. "Preparation for the team." We have to remember that the main
function of US contests is NOT to train pilots for the world team. Why
not? If we focus only on that goal and in so doing make the whole
operation unpleasant for everybody else, nobody else shows up. If
nobody else shows up, you don't have a contest in the first place.
Already, many nationals are only attracting 20-30 pilots and are on
the edge of being financially viable and able to attract volunteers to
run them. If it becomes unpleasant for the bottom of the scoresheet,
the whole thing dies. The argument "do X because that's how it's done
in the worlds" with no further justification that it makes any sense
is always going to fall on deaf ears for this reason.

I've long been a fan of the idea of a "US Team Camp" which could
follow world rules exactly, and do any nutty thing the IGC dreams up
for the next worlds -- start gates with altitude limit and no speed
limit, tasks in which the right strategy is to dive for the ground 150
mi downwind of home at 3:00 exactly and then try to limp home, final
glides straight in to the airport over unlandable terrain, scoring
systems that make sticking with the gaggle mandatory even if that
means doing start gate roulette all afternoon and landing back at the
airport, tasking that lands everybody out, launching in the rain, you
name it. Along with team flying, ground weather support, extensive
pre- and post-flight briefings and the other things missing in our
contests. And along with a club class whose rules eliminate two thirds
of the gliders that currently show up for sports class nationals.
Events like that might support themselves f by hefty entry fees from
wannabees like myself. That's the right answer for "prepare pilots for
the worlds." I like it almost enough to get off my butt and organize
it myself! Hopefully someone more devoted to the "prepare for the
worlds" concept will have more energy.

10.3.1.1 † Task Parameters
....
• Standard Task Time: 4.0 hours

10.3.1.3 Normal Task - Tasks should make as full use of the available
soaring weather as is practical...
10.3.1.5 Maximum Task - Tasks should be set such that the total time
on course of the highest-scoring flights on any two consecutive days
is less than 10 hours. But, consistent with this and as conditions
allow, it is it is appropriate for the CD to set occasional tasks that
are substantially longer than the Standard Task Time.


A10.3.1.1 The minimum time is supposed to be a minimum, not a
target..... A longer task is desirable if the weather will allow it.

A10.3.1.2 Task-calling considerations for the CD General ...- Try to
use the full day, not merely the best part of it.

John Cochrane BB

On May 29, 1:14 pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

Second, you can achieve an "assigned task" in the MAT structure by
simply calling a lot of turnpoints. I don't know why this is not done
more often but it should be. You get all the joys of assigned task
racing -- start gate roulette, big gaggle flying, everyone on the same
course, leeching, watching your buddies go by, and so forth. But after
X hours everyone gets to go home rather than land out the bottom 25%
of the fleet.

How may years have I been staring at the rules and it never occurred
to me that you could go home without hitting all the declared
turnpoints. Mostly I've seen "free-for-all MATs with one or zero
declared turnpoints. I wonder why CDs don't call this version in
Sports Class for all the AST-hungry types? With some longer middle
legs it wouldn't even have the "get home exactly on time" feature of
tasks with a minimum time - just set it so the fastest expected speeds
get you to the last turnpoint just before minimum time, but going home
without the last turn would have you well under. 3 or 4 turnpoints
would be more than enough to cover a broad range of pilot and ships.

9B

On May 31, 4:47*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
1. Long tasks. The US rules already strongly encourage long tasks.
Nothing hurts like taking two weeks off of work and going to a
contest, only to sit on the ground under a great sky after a short
task call. See the rules below. The CD can and should call 5 hour plus
tasks whenever possible, under current rules. If CDs aren't, you don't
need a new class, and you don't need new rules. You need to complain
to the CD and tell him to follow the current rules!

There are rules giving a time limit from landing to submitting
evidence, but I'm not aware of any rules forcing you to land shortly
after completing the task.

I have seen at least several people do good old traditional contest
finishes and then thermal away and head off somewhere for another hour
or two of fun.

On May 29, 2:19*am, Andy wrote:
On May 28, 6:48*am, wrote:

Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

Impressive - Tim's example rightly takes the wind out of the argument
that the US needs a separate Club Class based on the belief that Club
Class gliders can't go out on "big boy" tasks.

9B

9B,

I disagree. Those of us who support a Club Class in America aren't
concerned about the length of the task called. Heck no. What we want
is the ability to call Racing Tasks (also called Assigned Tasks)
instead of just Turn Area Tasks and Modified Assigned Tasks. We also
want a group of gliders more closely matched in performance. And, we
would like to get a handle on the assignment of handicaps. Since many
other countries already fly Club Class, I think they are using an IGC
based system of assigning handicaps. Is it any better than the Carl
Herald (sp?) system (and modified Carl Herald numbers) that we now
use? I hope so. And maybe we here in the US can start using the IGC
handicaps for future Club Class races.

I flew in the First United States Club Class Race in Cordele, Georgia
just a couple of weeks back and it was real fun to line up on the grid
and not see a bunch of ASW-27's, Duo Discii, Ventus V2's, Discus D2's,
JS1's, 304s', Diana's, etc in our class. The weather cooperated one
day for a real assigned task to be called. Hallelujah!
Unfortunately, the Cordele weather of legend didn't show up and the
three other days we flew, we had Turn Area Tasks. But at least our
CD, Sam Giltner, kept the circles small which gave us more of a chance
to stay and race together rather than spreading us out over many
square miles that really big circles can do.

I'm not concerned about "big boy" tasks. Of course, any of my friends
who might be tasked to come get me might have a bit more concern...

Sincerely,
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA