tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...Szybowiec_rozb...

Not enough is known about this tragic event. Our condolences to the
families.
But to answer the question, a rope break event is in the US Practical
Test Standards and references the Glider Pilots Handbook which
identifies 200ft AGL as a minimum altitude for the event, WEATHER
PERMITING.

It is one of the last events I teach before solo, knowing the pilot is
well briefed for the first event and is well versed and has no
problems maintaining coordinated flight and airspeed during turns.

T

On 7/11/2011 10:05 PM, Tony V wrote:
Students learn several very valuable things during a simulated rope break.
1. they have (at least) a 3 second "oh, ****", factor where they don't
do anything until the reality sets in. I had one student that froze and
did nothing at all.
2. they don't get the nose down fast enough, far enough - even after
they recognize and react to the situation.

Forgot point number 3. You can't just point the nose down and start your
turn back to the airport. You have to wait until you have enough
airspeed to pull that off. Something that gets drilled into every winch
student (I hope).

Tony

I always teach a multitude of tow failures to pre-solo students
ranging from turn backs at low-ish altitude to abbreviate patterns at
mid altitude to full patterns once high enough. I always sort of grin
when people call it a "simulated rope break". There is nothing
simulated about it! Frankly i find it the most stressful sort of
training that i've ever given because it requires an incredibly high
level of oversight and everything has to be done just right, there
isn't a lot of room for error. I've had a few exciting
ones...probably earned a few early gray hairs as a result.

The more downwind turnarounds i've done the more I realize that in
reality at the airports I usually fly from a landing straight ahead
into the wind off airport is probably at least as safe if not safer
than turning back. I always make sure that my students are not
married to the idea of having to make it back to the runway too. IMO
there is a pretty narrow window of wind/temperature/takeoff
performance and however many other factors that make turning back the
truly best all around option. Remember this is me flying out of
midwest runways with miles of landable fields off the departure ends.

I usually enforce a basic three step process after the rope "breaks".
1: nose down 2: turn (if you need to) 3: land. Lots of pilots forget
#1.

I've also learned over the years that sometimes the most difficult tow
failures are the mid altitudes where you have multiple options
(especially if there is more than one runway at your airport). could
make a short pattern and land into the wind, could pick another runway
for a crosswind landing, could land downwind. sometimes options are a
bad thing and people wait too long to make a decision and then they
are out of options and ideas.

On Jul 11, 4:01*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

I doubt we can learn anythng from it without knowing the circustances
of the crash. *Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?

The instructor should be sure the turn back can be accomplished safely
considering wind, altitude, and distance from the airport. *In your
case it seems his judgement was ok.

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

On Jul 11, 11:01*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jul 11, 4:01*pm, Andy wrote:









On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

I doubt we can learn anythng from it without knowing the circustances
of the crash. *Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?

The instructor should be sure the turn back can be accomplished safely
considering wind, altitude, and distance from the airport. *In your
case it seems his judgement was ok.

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. *The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. *It's been reported that
it was gusty. *The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

*Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?
Andy

Yes Andy, the article said that Puchacz was in a spin.
I think that from towing attitude quick push stick forward with wings
level into the headwind would get speed faster plus 10-20 mph before
starting 180 downwind turn, that would prevent the spin.
Starting 180 downwind turn with high nose attitude at the moment of
release from tow may cause a rapid loss of airspeed and spin. There is
no problem at higher altitude, there is a big problem at low altitude.
Puchacz has a momentum, demands respect or it will bite.
Some pilots survived collisions with ground in full spin, did not
survive when rotation was stopped close to the ground.

On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...Szybowiec_rozb...

The article sais that Puchacz was in a spin.

I think that from towing attitude quick push stick forward with wings
level into the headwind would get speed faster plus 10-20 mph before
starting 180 downwind turn, that would prevent stall and spin.
Starting 180 downwind turn with high nose attitude at the moment of
release from tow may cause a rapid loss of airspeed and spin. There is
no problem at higher altitude, there is a big problem at low altitude.
Puchacz has a momentum, demands respect or it will bite.
Some pilots survived collisions with ground in full spin, did not
survive when rotation was stopped close to the ground.

On 7/11/2011 1:38 PM, wrote:

What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

Is this inherently dangerous? Not necessarily at all. Is it a useful
skill to have when used with judgment? Absolutely.

When is it dangerous? Like a lot of things in flying, "It depends."

As a CFIG, I insist and the FAA's PTS (amended 9/1/10) require that the
student be familiar with a variety of aero tow launch failures and must
demonstrate simulated aero tow failures "as required by the examiner."

The student needs to know how to do this safely and also needs to know
what under what conditions it's not safe. Further, he needs to evaluate
the field conditions before launch, not at 200' when the rope goes "ping."

At our field, on a calm, warm day, with two fat old guys in a Blanik and
a tow plane that has just had the long range tanks topped off, a
release at 200 feet would definitely make me a bit uncomfortable,
especially when I look at the trees. If the tow pilot continues straight
ahead, when I get to 300 ft. I might be in a worse position.

On the other hand, here comes the "it depends part", on a cool day with
a 10 kt breeze, quarter tanks in the tow plane and a petite student, the
maneuver is safe, fun, and an important skill to have.

On a long runway, in lots of wind, behind a powerful tow plane, in a
Schweizer 2-22 (Euro guys think Ka-4) landing straight a head may be a
better option.

It depends... Instructors must have this discussion with students.

The instructor has to impart equal parts of skill and judgment so the
students can be safe pilots.


--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska

Going home after a long day
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/...22928754_b.jpg

The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/4...cb8d2482_b.jpg

The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacier
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/4...a216d7bb75.jpg

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:49:36 -0700 (PDT), Frank Paynter
wrote:


BTW, at the risk of starting a religious war, rope breaks, spins, and
other dangerous maneuvers can be simulated realistically, at any
altitude and weather configuration in Condor.

Bullsh**.


Andreas

Rope breaks are definitely exciting. I vividly remember my first one,
six years ago prior to solo. It had me so worked up I had trouble
sleeping the night before, but the actual event was no where near as
bad as I'd imagined. The worst one I've experienced was when the tow
plane had "engine failure" and started slowing down after I was flying
but before it left the ground. Realistic, but my heart still beats
faster when I think of it. Another high stress situation, as pointed
out above, is when you're just below pattern altitude about to turn
downwind and you have lots of choices of what to do. But for all the
drama, I believe rope break practice is very necessary - in my short
soaring career I've seen 3 unintentional rope breaks. All turned out
just fine, because the pilots knew what they had to do.

-John