Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?

If your airbrakes "suck open" after you are going faster than 25 knots
it will not warn you, just FYI...

It would work a tad better if the "spoiler open on tow" worked until
the first "gear up" condition before it reverted to the "spoiler
open / gear not down" mode.

On 9/8/2011 1:03 PM, Mark wrote:
If your airbrakes "suck open" after you are going faster than 25 knots
it will not warn you, just FYI...

It would work a tad better if the "spoiler open on tow" worked until
the first "gear up" condition before it reverted to the "spoiler
open / gear not down" mode.

If you install the airbrake switch correctly, the Cambridge 302 will
warn you even before the airbrakes "suck open".

The Cambridge system is designed to work with a switch that detects when
the spoilers are _unlocked_, not after they are extended. It's an
important difference, but it's usually easy to install a switch that
does that. On the gliders I've had, there is at least 0.5" of movement
of the spoiler handle and connecting linkage to unlock the spoilers.

So, it's more accurate to refer to it as "spoiler's unlocked on tow",
instead of "spoilers open on tow".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be
flying.


"Mark" wrote in message
...
If your airbrakes "suck open" after you are going faster than 25 knots
it will not warn you, just FYI...

It would work a tad better if the "spoiler open on tow" worked until
the first "gear up" condition before it reverted to the "spoiler
open / gear not down" mode.

"Dan Marotta" wrote:
If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't
be flying.

But those pilots clearly are flying. And are killing themselves and
hurting passengers etc.in depressingly familiar accidents.

In the case of the C302 (and hopefully ClearNav vario) this feature
works very well and I would connect in any glider I owned. The limit
with these things is does having a lots of these alarms just end up
confusing/distractions and can the pilot handle and respond to the alarm
(and given how far behind the aircraft some seem this may be a problem).
But a "it's there problem" attitude and just sitting by while pilots
kill themselves is not going to help this sport or those pilots. And yes
if somebody is clearly having problems with safe spoiler
operation/handling emergencies/distractions etc. my first call would be
time with a good instructor not add a gadget but those gadgets may have
a place as well.

Darryl

I've been using my 302 warnings this way since I've owned mine. Works
very well. As stated, it's simple to test the gear up/brakes unlocked
while on the ground. The speed-enabled warning requires simulated
airspeed. I don't really test the latter feature very often. My pre-
flight checklist handles making sure the brakes/spoilers are locked on
take-off. My ship has a very solid over-center lock mechanism. They've
never unlocked on me without me explicitly doing it to apply brakes/
spoilers. My pre-landing checklist also covers the gear deployment
before brake/spoiler usage for landing. I've actually never had the
alarm go off because I missed something or the brakes/spoilers
unlocked on their own. There were a few occasions where I deployed
spoilers to stay out of a cloud at the top of some strong lift. That's
the only time I've heard the alarm in flight. Hopefully it stays that
way. It certainly gives piece of mind to know I won't land gear up.

Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some
people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or
driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told to
stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe and
competent in the first place?"

Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the
world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If they
can't do it, why not just tell them so?


"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
"Dan Marotta" wrote:
If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't
be flying.

But those pilots clearly are flying. And are killing themselves and
hurting passengers etc.in depressingly familiar accidents.

In the case of the C302 (and hopefully ClearNav vario) this feature
works very well and I would connect in any glider I owned. The limit
with these things is does having a lots of these alarms just end up
confusing/distractions and can the pilot handle and respond to the alarm
(and given how far behind the aircraft some seem this may be a problem).
But a "it's there problem" attitude and just sitting by while pilots
kill themselves is not going to help this sport or those pilots. And yes
if somebody is clearly having problems with safe spoiler
operation/handling emergencies/distractions etc. my first call would be
time with a good instructor not add a gadget but those gadgets may have
a place as well.

Darryl

On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some
people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or
driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told
to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe
and competent in the first place?"

Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the
world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If
they can't do it, why not just tell them so?

Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is
incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a
recent post, you wrote:

If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't
be flying.

Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic
idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had
this happen to them.

As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear
competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo
that's having accidents.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

I saw your previous statement, Eric. And maybe I misunderstood what you
said.

I assume you said that you've mistakenly taken off with spoilers unlocked.
That's an oversight that I'm not railing about. Answer me this: Assuming
the spoilers sucked open sometime after liftoff, did you recognize it and
close them, or did you fly blissfully along wondering why it was suddenly so
noisy and your climb rate had diminished, not to mention the sudden drop
causing your head to bang the canopy?



"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some
people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or
driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told
to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe
and competent in the first place?"

Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the
world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If
they can't do it, why not just tell them so?

Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is incompetent,
or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a recent post, you
wrote:

If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't
be flying.

Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic
idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had
this happen to them.

As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear
competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo
that's having accidents.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
me)

On 9/10/2011 1:04 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I saw your previous statement, Eric. And maybe I misunderstood what
you said.

I assume you said that you've mistakenly taken off with spoilers
unlocked. That's an oversight that I'm not railing about. Answer me
this: Assuming the spoilers sucked open sometime after liftoff, did
you recognize it and close them, or did you fly blissfully along
wondering why it was suddenly so noisy and your climb rate had
diminished, not to mention the sudden drop causing your head to bang
the canopy?

In one cases, I did tow along blissfully for a while, but it wasn't
noisy, my climb rate did not diminish, and there wasn't any sudden drop.
It would be great if those things happened, but they don't happen on an
ASW 20 B when the spoilers slowly extend under tow. At some point, I
realized I was flying at a higher than usual AOA for the speed I was
being towed at. That perception was delayed because I was at a contest,
flying with water, behind a fast, powerful towplane (twice the climb
rate of the one in our club), and so was not familiar with the correct
attitude.

In the other case, they opened about 10' off the ground, a few seconds
after liftoff. There was no extra noise, there was no reduction in climb
rate, but I did notice a drop (but not sudden) that I first attributed
to a sinking air or wind shear, but after "a few seconds" (5? 10?) I
realized something was wrong, checked the spoilers - oops - and closed
them. Again, being towed by a powerful tow plane.

At high speeds, spoilers will act like you wrote (sudden opening, noisy,
big drop), but at tow speeds, they can open so gently it's not
immediately evident. My guess: this is probably what happens a lot of
times when the spoiler suck open during the tow, and why the pilot
doesn't recognize it immediately, and sometimes not at all.

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone?
Some people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding
motorcycles, or driving cars. I think we'd all be better served
if these folks were told to stop flying. But then we'd have to
ask: "Who certified them as safe and competent in the first
place?"

Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people
in the world, the result of putting their self esteem above their
safety. If they can't do it, why not just tell them so?

Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is
incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In
a recent post, you wrote:

If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you
shouldn't be flying.

Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the
basic idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself,
that have had this happen to them.

As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that
appear competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the
obvious bozo that's having accidents.

-- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us"
to email me)



--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

Things go wrong - sometimes in ways that look like you are incompetent.

I had my airbrake over centre adjusted wrong at an annual inspection.
First tow there was much excitement and rudder waggling. Every time I
locked the lever back, every time they popped open 20 seconds later.
Eventually just wedged them and flew, the aerotow was slower to climb
because I could not hold the brakes entire ly closed with my thigh - but
at least I was not having 20foot excursions the whole time.

Lots of comments when I landed.

Geometry checked and overcentre load adjusted correctly. Suddenly pilot
competence increased substantially...

So - yes we try to make things safe because things can go wrong. There
is a fine line before sanitising to the point of pilots becoming dangerous.

Unfortunately some folk just can't ever get safe. In our club operation
they then have the choice of continuing with a safety pilot, or going
back to being a spectator. Fortunately there are very few who fail to
recognise their own limitations. It is one of the reasons folk drift away.

Hard call to make, but it is better to have someone alive and resentful
of your decision than dead.

On 2011/09/10 9:47 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some
people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or
driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told
to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe
and competent in the first place?"

Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the
world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If
they can't do it, why not just tell them so?

Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is
incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a
recent post, you wrote:

If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't
be flying.

Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic
idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had
this happen to them.

As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear
competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo
that's having accidents.


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57