PowerFlarm at Region 9 Contest

On Monday, June 10, 2013 8:53:21 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Neither Flarm nor

transponder will protect against VFR aircraft not in contact with ATC. PCAS

might work for that, however.




I was under the impression that PowerFlarm (not Flarm) did that since it receives Mode C replies. Is that not the case?

On Monday, June 10, 2013 9:39:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2013 8:53:21 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Neither Flarm nor



transponder will protect against VFR aircraft not in contact with ATC. PCAS



might work for that, however.









I was under the impression that PowerFlarm (not Flarm) did that since it receives Mode C replies. Is that not the case?

Yes, but I was replying to Dan who doesn't want a Flarm. We have lots of aviation traffic going to small airfields that are not in contact with ATC. Single-engine stuff is usually low down, but twins are often coming in from a destination further away and descend through airspace near the gliderport. They never seem to be looking out of their windows and won't be aware of me unless they too have a PCAS.


Mike

On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:06:24 AM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2013 9:39:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

On Monday, June 10, 2013 8:53:21 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Neither Flarm nor







transponder will protect against VFR aircraft not in contact with ATC.. PCAS







might work for that, however.



















I was under the impression that PowerFlarm (not Flarm) did that since it receives Mode C replies. Is that not the case?



Yes, but I was replying to Dan who doesn't want a Flarm. We have lots of aviation traffic going to small airfields that are not in contact with ATC.. Single-engine stuff is usually low down, but twins are often coming in from a destination further away and descend through airspace near the gliderport. They never seem to be looking out of their windows and won't be aware of me unless they too have a PCAS.





Mike

Every now and then the argument of flarm vs transponder will come up. This is like comparing apples to oranges. These are not alternative solutions. Each has different purpose and each solution is highly desirable depend on where you fly. Dan flies out of Moriarty so obviously both are desired. Sooner or later those who insist on never installing a flarm will find themselves less popular among their flying buddies who went through the trouble of installing. You may hear on the radio "watch out for a bozo flying around without flarm". My message to those who can afford a powerflarm but don't think they need it: Install one anyway and turn the display off if you want. At least we will be able to see and avoid you. You may never know that it saved your butt.

Ramy

On Monday, June 10, 2013 12:15:16 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Sooner or later those who insist on never installing a flarm will find themselves less popular among their flying buddies who went through the trouble of installing. You may hear on the radio "watch out for a bozo flying around without flarm". My message to those who can afford a powerflarm but don't think they need it: Install one anyway and turn the display off if you want. At least we will be able to see and avoid you. You may never know that it saved your butt.

Ramy
__________________

Amen Ramy - I was sympathetic to the rationalizing by those who didn't fly with PowerFlarm or Transponders - until I got both. Both arguments are exactly the same - just focused on different traffic types. That argument is: "big sky, little glider, I don't need it".

You correctly point out the big cultural difference between the two - a transponder protect you and airline passengers, PowerFlarm protects you and your soaring buddies. I care that you don't run into an airliner, but it's an intellectual exercise. I care that you don't run into me because it's personal.

Lacking a PowerFlarm is becoming the path to being a pariah at contests. I see it being taken up at commercial operations too and I suspect the more active clubs are adopting. We'll see how long the diehard opponents last.

9B

Ramy, send me one and I'll install it. I won't, however, bend to peer
pressure and you can call me a bozo if you want. We have big skies around
Moriarty and, outside of contests, there are few gliders. I want protection
from transponder equipped aircraft.


"Ramy" wrote in message
...
On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:06:24 AM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2013 9:39:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

On Monday, June 10, 2013 8:53:21 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Neither Flarm nor







transponder will protect against VFR aircraft not in contact with ATC.
PCAS







might work for that, however.



















I was under the impression that PowerFlarm (not Flarm) did that since it
receives Mode C replies. Is that not the case?



Yes, but I was replying to Dan who doesn't want a Flarm. We have lots of
aviation traffic going to small airfields that are not in contact with
ATC. Single-engine stuff is usually low down, but twins are often coming
in from a destination further away and descend through airspace near the
gliderport. They never seem to be looking out of their windows and won't
be aware of me unless they too have a PCAS.





Mike

Every now and then the argument of flarm vs transponder will come up. This
is like comparing apples to oranges. These are not alternative solutions.
Each has different purpose and each solution is highly desirable depend on
where you fly. Dan flies out of Moriarty so obviously both are desired.
Sooner or later those who insist on never installing a flarm will find
themselves less popular among their flying buddies who went through the
trouble of installing. You may hear on the radio "watch out for a bozo
flying around without flarm". My message to those who can afford a
powerflarm but don't think they need it: Install one anyway and turn the
display off if you want. At least we will be able to see and avoid you. You
may never know that it saved your butt.

Ramy

Dan,

It is not bending to peer pressure it is waking up to a important safety tool.
On a good weekend and some weekdays we have upwards of 20 gliders flying in the Moriarty airspace. Many are flying in the same areas as they are running shear lines and cloud streets for OLC points. We do have a big sky but often well populated routes.

On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:24:43 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ramy, send me one and I'll install it. I won't, however, bend to peer pressure and you can call me a bozo if you want. We have big skies around Moriarty and, outside of contests, there are few gliders. I want protection from transponder equipped aircraft.

My first near mid-air with a glider some years ago involved a run down a cloud street - I was returning and a colleague was outbound. We were in radio contact and knew of the potential conflict. When we met, I saw a brief flash of wing and as I started climbing and turning, he passed 20 feet under my wing without ever seeing me. Replaying our igc files showed that we were both cruising around 85 to 90 knots IAS and had a closing speed of close to 250mph. I saw him at a distance of a mile, or about 12 seconds before we passed. Flarm would have helped.

I was one of the PowerFlarm skeptics, but have now seen the benefits. Gliders not so equipped are likely to become pariahs, firstly being excluded from competition and later from clubs or FBOs. I would not be surprised if insurance companies also weighed in by offering discounts to Flarm-equipped gliders.

I would lump pilots who moan about mandated safety devices with motorcyclists who like the freedom to ride without a helmet, except the pilot may kill one of his buddies too.

Mike

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 12:00:13 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
My first near mid-air with a glider some years ago involved a run down a cloud street - I was returning and a colleague was outbound. We were in radio contact and knew of the potential conflict. When we met, I saw a brief flash of wing and as I started climbing and turning, he passed 20 feet under my wing without ever seeing me. Replaying our igc files showed that we were both cruising around 85 to 90 knots IAS and had a closing speed of close to 250mph. I saw him at a distance of a mile, or about 12 seconds before we passed. Flarm would have helped.



I was one of the PowerFlarm skeptics, but have now seen the benefits. Gliders not so equipped are likely to become pariahs, firstly being excluded from competition and later from clubs or FBOs. I would not be surprised if insurance companies also weighed in by offering discounts to Flarm-equipped gliders.



I would lump pilots who moan about mandated safety devices with motorcyclists who like the freedom to ride without a helmet, except the pilot may kill one of his buddies too.



Mike

I will not install a power flarm or transponder in my KA6CR. too expensive.

Dale

There is still a great deal of work to do on Flarm before it is a
truely trustworthy piece of equipment.
Ramy ... name calling is just what we don't want on these discussions.
Your Power Flarms should be able to detect and display a transponder
that is actively being interrogated by ATC radar. The last four times
I have flown in airspace with PowerFlarm equiped gliders and have been
close enough to the Flarm plane to be able to read the model name on
the side of the cockpit, the PowerFlarm pilot did not see me on their
display. I talked with each of those pilots on the radio. My
transponder is blinking like a WalMart christmas tree and they don't
see me. They don't see me with their eyes either !!!!!!! My
transponder has passed all the tests and the antenna radiates with no
detectable blind spots. There are still some significant problems
with antenna placement with Flarm, especially in aircraft that have
carbon fuselages. Then there is the wildcard of how pilots set the
parameters on their Flarms...or don't.

Guy Acheson "DDS"

Dan Marotta wrote, On 6/10/2013 9:24 PM:
I want protection from transponder equipped aircraft.

Maybe you meant TCAS equipped aircraft?

At least get an MRX, if you don't want a PowerFlarm. The MRX will warn
you of transponder equipped aircraft, most of which do not have TCAS.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl