Hi... and some questions from a beginner

On 5/18/2015 11:34 PM, Johnny T wrote:

Informative background stuff snipped...
Congrats on reaching a point in life where your soaring itch needs scratching
again. I hope it's a blast!

1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33
as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21
back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33,
but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II -
however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this
transition would be very helpful.
It's unclear to me to which transition you're referring, 2-33-K-21 or K-21 to
2-33. Minden's advice should-oughta be adequate for the former, while
muscle-memory (and a good dose of reflective rationalization!) will prolly
work for the latter. Obtaining your license (and the "informal but real
outside respect" accompanying it will presumably go a long way toward reducing
your club's access-restriction on G-103 training (though I'm curious why
they've evolved from where they apparently used to be in this regard...I hope
it's not because of the experience-demolished antediluvian attitude having to
do with "difficulty of teaching/learning" much more common 20 years ago in the
U.S. than now). In any event, you gotta fly what you've access to, and
maintaining a healthy philosophical attitude will be better than mentally
bemoaning the absence of perceived perfection.


2) Anyone know what the average age group is on RAS? How about the average
age group of the SSA?
Prolly both in excess of 50?


3) What is the European equivalent of the SSA?
SSE? (Joke attempt, people!!!)

4) I assume south-eastern US thermalling is a completely different skill
set than ridge/wave, or desert thermalling. Is soaring in the south east
really that bad? I remember learning how to look for things like pig farms,
asphalt parking lots, and birds circling... I guess that is what I got to
learn to recognize.
If it's not yet in your library, spend some time with George Moffat's "Winning
on the Wind" and/or "Winning II". In the latter he passingly notes the high
preponderance in the U.S. of "eastern-type" sailplane pilots in the top ranks
of national/international competition results. As an eastern
born-n-raised-n-licensed glider type who moved permanently to the west with
~100 total hours (decades before "Winning II" appeared), this particular truth
was obvious to me without need for reinforcing validity from a 2-time world
champion...and it wasn't long before I began encountering a not-then-uncommon
('late '70's/early '80's) "western attitude" that any lift beneath (say)
500fpm was: pure survival desperate; not workable; not lift. Somewhat
mind-blowing, to me, it was...

How a person thinks, matters!

5) I work in the tech industry, and thus am fascinated with the progression
of tech used for soaring and sometimes the seeming "lack" of progression of
tech. I have been playing around a bit with both iGlide and WinPilot - both
are neat, however, I don't expect my CFI to be well versed with either of
these. While learning about iGlide, I noticed the completely sexy line of
Air Avionics systems and the Butterfly S vario... Then I started reading
about it and noticed this really crazy part of the docs.

Something to the effect of "Note: The artificial horizon feature is not
allowed for contest soaring".

Help a newbie mind understand this concept. I mean, I get it - you are not
suppose to fly in clouds, however there are definitely recent incidents
where pilots have been caught in clouds unexpectedly and wouldn't you think
that any type of safety device would be more helpful than no safety device?
Why would a AH not be allowed?
I'm sure others will opine on this one! I spent most of my engineering career
in the "high-tech industry, beginning with high-end 9-track tape drives
through the evolution of hard disk drives'
creation/miniaturization/commoditization, and am neither ignorant of nor a
Luddite in the "technology arena", but definitely fall into the "less is more"
and "choose your tools wisely" schools of life philosophy. While humankind's
soaring abilities almost definitionally depend upon some level of advancing
technology, once beyond "some early minima," later technology is not
*required* in order to achieve eye-popping distances and life-enduring
satisfaction from the activity. If "the latest technology" winds your clock,
by all means go for it!!! Just don't fall into the trap of believing it's
*necessary*.

6) Anyone know what the percentage of participants in the SSA own their own
glider, vs have a private partnership, vs rely on club gliders only?
Not I. Successfully and "satisfactionally" BTDT in each category...

Greetings, and it's good to be back (almost)
Welcome to "the tribe!!!" So far, our internecine squabbles haven't resulted
in any bloodshed of which I'm aware!

Bob W.

I am not sure George was correct about Eastern pilots being better than Western pilots. I am thinking world team pilots Bill Bartel, Gary Ittner, Chip Garner, Sean Franke, Garett Willet, Jim Payne, Texas (known for booming thermals) Ron Tabery, David Mockler with apologies for anyone not mentioned. Winter flying in the west I am happy to find a 2 knot thermal or even a one knot thermal.

I am not sure George was correct about Eastern pilots being better than
Western pilots. I am thinking world team pilots Bill Bartel, Gary Ittner,
Chip Garner, Sean Franke, Garett Willet, Jim Payne, Texas (known for
booming thermals) Ron Tabery, David Mockler with apologies for anyone not
mentioned. Winter flying in the west I am happy to find a 2 knot thermal or
even a one knot thermal.


I blame this branch's thread drift on the O.P.'s plethora and range of initial
questions!

Yeah - one can approach this particular question from several perspectives,
ranging from the numerical to the "purely philosophical," and arguably make a
good case regardless of perspective. I think the point I was indirectly trying
to suggest was unarguably significant to a person's ability to (most rapidly)
ascend the XC learning curve, is that lift is lift, and the ability to
recognize when it makes sense to use whatever you can find (as distinct from
ignoring all but that meeting some arbitrary personal numerical definition of
"usable lift") might well come more readily to someone who's learned in a
region prone to "crud" as opposed to "booming lift." In any event, I think
I've "generally" noticed it easier for "your average eastern larnin'" to
transition to western conditions than vicey-versy.

Everyone's mileage will vary...and all generalizations are false, including
those found herein!


Bob W.

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 1:08:05 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:
I am not sure George was correct about Eastern pilots being better than
Western pilots. I am thinking world team pilots Bill Bartel, Gary Ittner,
Chip Garner, Sean Franke, Garett Willet, Jim Payne, Texas (known for
booming thermals) Ron Tabery, David Mockler with apologies for anyone not
mentioned. Winter flying in the west I am happy to find a 2 knot thermal or
even a one knot thermal.


I blame this branch's thread drift on the O.P.'s plethora and range of initial
questions!

Yeah - one can approach this particular question from several perspectives,
ranging from the numerical to the "purely philosophical," and arguably make a
good case regardless of perspective. I think the point I was indirectly trying
to suggest was unarguably significant to a person's ability to (most rapidly)
ascend the XC learning curve, is that lift is lift, and the ability to
recognize when it makes sense to use whatever you can find (as distinct from
ignoring all but that meeting some arbitrary personal numerical definition of
"usable lift") might well come more readily to someone who's learned in a
region prone to "crud" as opposed to "booming lift." In any event, I think
I've "generally" noticed it easier for "your average eastern larnin'" to
transition to western conditions than vicey-versy.

Everyone's mileage will vary...and all generalizations are false, including
those found herein!


Bob W.

+1, soaring is soaring, different areas will require some adjustment but the basics are the same.

Flying pretty much ANY Schleicher is similar to Schweitzers in that they have similar control harmony (which I consider to be very good in both brands overall). I have most of my time in a variety of models from both companies as well as some time in other brands.

Going from "glass" back to a 2-33 won't be hard unless you try to fly fast....... a 2-33 won't go fast (other than down fast) as it's draggy.
It is actually a good thing to fly a variety of performance ranges (like ~22:1 to 50+:1) as it helps develop "mental gear shifting".

So, do your vacation, listen & look so you can learn. Enjoy the bigger/taller thermals out west, don't be disappointed when back in the south east.
Oh, and have fun.

PS, replying back here AFTER your trip could help out others down the road with similar questions.

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 5:54:29 AM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 5/18/2015 11:34 PM, Johnny T wrote:

Informative background stuff snipped...
Congrats on reaching a point in life where your soaring itch needs scratching
again. I hope it's a blast!

1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33
as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21
back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33,
but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II -
however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this
transition would be very helpful.
It's unclear to me to which transition you're referring, 2-33-K-21 or K-21 to
2-33. Minden's advice should-oughta be adequate for the former, while
muscle-memory (and a good dose of reflective rationalization!) will prolly
work for the latter. Obtaining your license (and the "informal but real
outside respect" accompanying it will presumably go a long way toward reducing
your club's access-restriction on G-103 training (though I'm curious why
they've evolved from where they apparently used to be in this regard...I hope
it's not because of the experience-demolished antediluvian attitude having to
do with "difficulty of teaching/learning" much more common 20 years ago in the
U.S. than now). In any event, you gotta fly what you've access to, and
maintaining a healthy philosophical attitude will be better than mentally
bemoaning the absence of perceived perfection.


The transition I am most worried about is K-21-2-33. Being that my previous gliding experience was 20 years ago, I am not really counting any of that experience. I feel like I am starting from scratch with maybe a little bit of head-start.

I guess it will all depend on how much I progress during my week in Minden and whether I can find any instructors at my local willing to teach on the Grob. We'll see, and I will update once this becomes more clear.


3) What is the European equivalent of the SSA?
SSE? (Joke attempt, people!!!)

Not really a joke... Is there no promotional / liaison organization in Europe like the SSA? Would that be FAI?

I am simply interested in checking out how things are promoted in other areas besides the US.



Something to the effect of "Note: The artificial horizon feature is not
allowed for contest soaring".


I still don't understand why an AH is disallowed for contests?

Bob W.

Thanks for the feedback. My brain is currently in sponge mode absorbing everything it can find.

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 2:53:01 PM UTC-4, Johnny T wrote:

I still don't understand why an AH is disallowed for contests?

This was the mechanism by which the cloud flying prohibition was enforced in contests for about a half a century. Obviously, in the age of smart phones with gyros and AH apps, the prohibition on AH instruments is no longer enforceable.

Oh, and btw: you aren't "supposed to stay out of clouds", you are supposed to stay VFR. Big difference! If you make an honest effort to stay VFR and are willing to park when you can't, I predict you'll never get enveloped in cloud.

T8

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 12:53:01 PM UTC-6, Johnny T wrote:
On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 5:54:29 AM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 5/18/2015 11:34 PM, Johnny T wrote:

Informative background stuff snipped...
Congrats on reaching a point in life where your soaring itch needs scratching
again. I hope it's a blast!

1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33
as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21
back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33,
but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II -
however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this
transition would be very helpful.
It's unclear to me to which transition you're referring, 2-33-K-21 or K-21 to
2-33. Minden's advice should-oughta be adequate for the former, while
muscle-memory (and a good dose of reflective rationalization!) will prolly
work for the latter. Obtaining your license (and the "informal but real
outside respect" accompanying it will presumably go a long way toward reducing
your club's access-restriction on G-103 training (though I'm curious why
they've evolved from where they apparently used to be in this regard...I hope
it's not because of the experience-demolished antediluvian attitude having to
do with "difficulty of teaching/learning" much more common 20 years ago in the
U.S. than now). In any event, you gotta fly what you've access to, and
maintaining a healthy philosophical attitude will be better than mentally
bemoaning the absence of perceived perfection.


The transition I am most worried about is K-21-2-33. Being that my previous gliding experience was 20 years ago, I am not really counting any of that experience. I feel like I am starting from scratch with maybe a little bit of head-start.

I guess it will all depend on how much I progress during my week in Minden and whether I can find any instructors at my local willing to teach on the Grob. We'll see, and I will update once this becomes more clear.


3) What is the European equivalent of the SSA?
SSE? (Joke attempt, people!!!)

Not really a joke... Is there no promotional / liaison organization in Europe like the SSA? Would that be FAI?

I am simply interested in checking out how things are promoted in other areas besides the US.



Something to the effect of "Note: The artificial horizon feature is not
allowed for contest soaring".


I still don't understand why an AH is disallowed for contests?

Bob W.

Thanks for the feedback. My brain is currently in sponge mode absorbing everything it can find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...g_associations

Permissible cloud flying in gliders and competitions has varied by country for several years. Banning A/H or even Bohli compasses is required for comps in some regions. https://www.ssa.org/files/member/1972%20WGC.pdf is one report on the 1972 WGC, one mid-air and one fatal. Cloud flying in WGC contests was banned after this. You can fly IFR in gliders if you are rated, current, and properly equipped, just not in contests.

Frank Whiteley