FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

Wow - I would have thought it completely self-evident that having this information via a screen was/is "bad" relative to what we (I) traditionally think of as "the sport of soaring". Not meant to sound sarcastic - just shows how differently people can look at this topic.

Without regurgitating a long post I made about a year back, it's completely obvious that IF we go in the direction of using Flarm as a tactical tool, then the next frontier of development will be highly optimized screens that interpret the data and present it in a way that's optimized for competition. Need to track KS or P7. Check. Two gaggles 3 miles ahead and want to know which has achieved the highest average climb among the 5 gliders involved. Check. Is the glider to the left or right achieving a better L/D over the last 2 minutes. Roger.

Of course, the best display and best software will cost more money, so let's just drop another $10K on top of the $100K we've already got locked up in this silly sport.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to get opinions from people who have actually flown under both scenarios.

P3

To provide more input to the discussion - I was never able to get my flarm to go into stealth mode during the contest. I used the $PFLAC,S,PRIV,1 code in the config file and provided that code to two other pilots who when they inserted the code into their config file, it placed their flarm in stealth mode.

No idea why my flarm ignored the command in the config file. To counteract this, I set my range to 2 km and 300 m so I would in principal have the same parameters as those in stealth.

So before we merrily go down the stealth path, let it be known, there are problems with the implementation.

As to the flying, it does remove the tactical value but, like John, I would prefer a greater range than 2 km. It also seems to me that the "climb rate" is considered the biggest advantage to the leeches.

If stealth is going to be implemented, I would prefer to see stealth mode opened up to a larger range, maybe 5 km and hide the climb rate.

As to the question of whether or not Comp ID's are displayed in stealth mode - I like to see the ID's. It makes the race more fun if you can see who you are ahead of and who you are behind. It brings back memories of the days of assigned tasks!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:49:23 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
Wow - I would have thought it completely self-evident that having this information via a screen was/is "bad" relative to what we (I) traditionally think of as "the sport of soaring".

The "sport" often involves highly tactical decisions of followng other gliders. Is it necessarily better that this is limited by the mark IV eybeball, so gliders have to follow very closely to stay with gaggles? Is it not possibly better to have a wider view, a chance to go off on your own and still keep track of others?

Yes, people do use flarm for tactical advantage. Right now, really, the display of where other glders are within 4 miles is the main use. The climb rates, as others have pointed out, are next to useless.

Cost is a non-issue. Advantage is a non-issue. We have the flarms anyway. We either artificially disable their capabilities or we use them at no extra cost for their full ability, and everyone has them. If you're worried about cost, $160,000 new gliders are orders of magniutde more than any electronics we are contemplating.

Let's worry about hypothetical new 100k instruments if and when they arrive.. For now the issue is, do we use the full capabilities of an instrument everyone has anyway or not?

So just how terrible is it to have a slightly better situalational awareness of where the gliders are within 4 miles -- and especially behind where you can't see?

One thing I like about full flarm is it actually breaks up gaggles. people can go off on their own for a bit and not worry about being alone all day.

Yes it's different. Yes it's new. But our job is not historic preservation. Our job is to have fun and enjoy soaring and advance the sport.

What I have not seen in the case for stealth mode is a clear statement of just what is the awful problem that we're trying to fix. Not hypotheticals, what have you actually observed in flarm contests that is a terrible problem requiring banning this interesting new technology?

Yes, you can see start gaggles that you otherwise might have missed unless you sat off the back of KS tail all day. Yes, you can see some other gaggles forming that you might have missed if you weren't looking very hard. So can everyone else. Just how terrible is this?

Personally I find the greater situational awareness of what others are doing makes the contest more enjoyable. The big complaint, especially when we moved from AST to time limited tasks is that nobody knew what anyone else was doing, you went and flew and waited for an 8 pm scoresheet. Well, now you know a lot more about what others are doing.

But that's my view. All I've heard is grumbling about how terrible it is that the sport is changing. That's not a problem. I've heard hypotheticals about new instruments someone might make someday. That's not a problem today. Just what is the real problem we're trying to fix here?

John Cochrane BB

I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM UTC-7, XC wrote:
I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC

I have to agree with JC. In fact I would prefer that the range be greatly increased. If I get a Flarm warning that I was not expecting, I consider that a failure of situational awareness.

The story about a mediocre pilot in a 15m following a top pilot in an 18 meter is quite far fetched - at least where I fly pretty much impossible as described. If performance in this sport comes down to simply aping another's actions, then it isn't quite the skill sport that we thought.

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 11:06:24 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM UTC-7, XC wrote:
I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC

I have to agree with JC. In fact I would prefer that the range be greatly increased. If I get a Flarm warning that I was not expecting, I consider that a failure of situational awareness.

The story about a mediocre pilot in a 15m following a top pilot in an 18 meter is quite far fetched - at least where I fly pretty much impossible as described. If performance in this sport comes down to simply aping another's actions, then it isn't quite the skill sport that we thought.

False. I've seen it too. i've seen mediocre pilots post excellent speeds because they mimed an excellent pilot's decision making. does that mean he had the right stuff? no. it means he copied someone's homework. it IS the skill sport we think it is. it's why Jerzy can go faster than everyone else by 5-10 MPH more often than seems possible. because to win over and over, tremendous skill is required.

On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 3:32:48 PM UTC-4, ND wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 11:06:24 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM UTC-7, XC wrote:
I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC

I have to agree with JC. In fact I would prefer that the range be greatly increased. If I get a Flarm warning that I was not expecting, I consider that a failure of situational awareness.

The story about a mediocre pilot in a 15m following a top pilot in an 18 meter is quite far fetched - at least where I fly pretty much impossible as described. If performance in this sport comes down to simply aping another's actions, then it isn't quite the skill sport that we thought.

False. I've seen it too. i've seen mediocre pilots post excellent speeds because they mimed an excellent pilot's decision making. does that mean he had the right stuff? no. it means he copied someone's homework. it IS the skill sport we think it is. it's why Jerzy can go faster than everyone else by 5-10 MPH more often than seems possible. because to win over and over, tremendous skill is required.

From my point of view (quite a while out of competition, but did compete against a lot of top US pilots before....), just because you "know" a "great pilot is doing something (like diving for the trees to scrape off leeches), YOU, still have to find the thermal, center it & climb out.
;-)

I lost a good place at Newcastle, VA (when all I had to do was get home) by deciding to follow another pilot back out (I had final glide made at ~8:1 in an ASW-20 before I headed back out) hoping I could garner an even better spot.

I landed out.
:-(

Yes, leeching can help at times, but being in the "right place at the right time" does NOT mean you'll get back up.

On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 12:32:48 PM UTC-7, ND wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 11:06:24 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM UTC-7, XC wrote:
I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC

I have to agree with JC. In fact I would prefer that the range be greatly increased. If I get a Flarm warning that I was not expecting, I consider that a failure of situational awareness.

The story about a mediocre pilot in a 15m following a top pilot in an 18 meter is quite far fetched - at least where I fly pretty much impossible as described. If performance in this sport comes down to simply aping another's actions, then it isn't quite the skill sport that we thought.

False. I've seen it too. i've seen mediocre pilots post excellent speeds because they mimed an excellent pilot's decision making. does that mean he had the right stuff? no. it means he copied someone's homework. it IS the skill sport we think it is. it's why Jerzy can go faster than everyone else by 5-10 MPH more often than seems possible. because to win over and over, tremendous skill is required.

Well I did qualify that with "where I fly", which is out west. Perhaps true for the flatlands and hillocks - I don't know. But if Jerzy can go 5 - 10 MPH faster than everyone else, I'm doubting that a novice in a 15m will keep up with him in an 18 no matter how many Flarms are involved. Not where I fly, anyway.

There are many technologies that have changed the sport over the years. This one not as earth shattering as many others gone before. The purists among us really should be flying with wooden wings, Clark Y airfoils, and a pellet vario. But the point about ADS-B makes this almost an academic argument?

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM UTC-7, XC wrote:
I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC

Mediocre pilots latched on to top competitors visually in the old days and followed them slavishly around the course. The only difference is now mr. mediocre can afford to get a few miles away, in the old days he had to stay 100 feet away so as not to lose contact. Ask KS how much fun this was.

I'm not convinced that the ability to find other gliders pre-start via flarm (especially without constest ids) is a significant help to a significant problem here. If you're worried about this, banning start announcements would be a bigger help.

Also we're talking about nationals.

John Cochrane

I noticed that climb rate was often mentioned here as useful tactical information.
Those who flown with PowerFlarm long enough already knows that the climb rate PowerFlarm indicates is more often than not completely wrong. I suspect this is due to the poor sampling rate, or lack of TE compensation or both. I found comparing relative altitude much more accurate and useful.

Ramy