SSA 2018 Rules Finish Penalty

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 2:37:53 PM UTC-7, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 4:21:38 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:52:20 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Here is my observation. Based on what I remember from the poll, majority of pilots voted for adopting FAI rules, yet the rules committee decided to study the issue instead of adopting the rules. Why not adopt the FAI rules for one of the contests this coming year. I am puzzled by this development. Why do we need to have a study if pilots already said they wanted the FAI rules?


Direct paste and copy.... it's up on the SSA site also.


10/19/2017 2017 SSA Pilot Opinion Poll Results

Do you favor a wholesale move to FAI rules?
Yes 29%
No 67%

5.1c Comments on a wholesale move to FAI rules: 42%

5.2 Do you favor a gradual adoption of FAI contest rules?
Yes 37%
No 59%

5.3 Do you favor retaining US contest rules as separate from FAI rules.
Yes 50%
No 43%


Best. Tom #711.

My interpretation of those numbers is that 2/3 of pilots want to (immediately or gradually) move to FAI rules (29% plus 37%)

Half want to have US rules be a separate entity (but not necessarily different) from FAI rules.

The RC has much finer grain analysis available.

QT,

If you do this 29% and 37% higher tech math "yes vote" which equals 66%,
then should you not add the other "no vote" parts of 67% and 59% which equal 126%?, which still gives us a greater "NO" vote?

Only 42% of those who cast the "whole sale" move responded on 5.2C.

Heck, I voted to make the AT TP smaller, as is used in the FAI rules, get rid of the cylinder and use a line with a MSH to start and a line to finish.

Of course, the CD should be able to make changes for what's "best" for that contest site.

Happy Snowflakes,

Best. Tom #711.

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 5:43:42 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 2:37:53 PM UTC-7, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 4:21:38 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:52:20 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Here is my observation. Based on what I remember from the poll, majority of pilots voted for adopting FAI rules, yet the rules committee decided to study the issue instead of adopting the rules. Why not adopt the FAI rules for one of the contests this coming year. I am puzzled by this development. Why do we need to have a study if pilots already said they wanted the FAI rules?


Direct paste and copy.... it's up on the SSA site also.


10/19/2017 2017 SSA Pilot Opinion Poll Results

Do you favor a wholesale move to FAI rules?
Yes 29%
No 67%

5.1c Comments on a wholesale move to FAI rules: 42%

5.2 Do you favor a gradual adoption of FAI contest rules?
Yes 37%
No 59%

5.3 Do you favor retaining US contest rules as separate from FAI rules.
Yes 50%
No 43%


Best. Tom #711.

My interpretation of those numbers is that 2/3 of pilots want to (immediately or gradually) move to FAI rules (29% plus 37%)

Half want to have US rules be a separate entity (but not necessarily different) from FAI rules.

The RC has much finer grain analysis available.

QT,

If you do this 29% and 37% higher tech math "yes vote" which equals 66%,
then should you not add the other "no vote" parts of 67% and 59% which equal 126%?, which still gives us a greater "NO" vote?

Only 42% of those who cast the "whole sale" move responded on 5.2C.

Heck, I voted to make the AT TP smaller, as is used in the FAI rules, get rid of the cylinder and use a line with a MSH to start and a line to finish.

Of course, the CD should be able to make changes for what's "best" for that contest site.

Happy Snowflakes,

Best. Tom #711.

Uh, that would be a no on the math part. A "no" answer is only a no to the issue of fast or slow, not to FAI or not.

Suggestion: Before sounding off, read the extensive analysis of poll results re FAI rules that the RC posted in its minutes on the ssa website.

John Cochrane

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 7:44:43 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Suggestion: Before sounding off, read...

Don't be silly John, this is RAS!
Happy 2018 all,
Best Regards, Dave

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 5:44:43 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
Suggestion: Before sounding off, read the extensive analysis of poll results re FAI rules that the RC posted in its minutes on the ssa website.

John Cochrane

Here's a copy and paste......and it's not all they discussed, just a part!

6. Change US competition to use FAI rules - Various communications and poll..
Discussion: Data suggests significant interest in seriously considering a move to FAI
rules. There is wide divergence between the most active quintile (top 20%) of pilots and
the second most active quintile (second 20%) of pilots. An anonymized tabulation
correlating responses with racing activity and performance was done. This yielded a
segmented view of responses across pilot cohorts that could be sorted by various pilot
participation and performance measures. Mostly the RC looked at results broken down
by overall contest and Nationals participation rates. This breakdown of responses also
allowed the RC to normalize poll results for the 4:1 variation in poll response rate across
pilot cohorts so as to estimate the likely views across the entire US racing pilot
community. It was noted that the top 3 contest participation quintiles of pilots had high
enough response rates to have reasonable confidence that they represented the views of
the cohort, while the bottom two quintiles had lower response rates that may not be fully
representative of the cohort. Lastly, these bottom two cohorts represent only 13% of all
US contest entries.
The strongest support for FAI rules is found among the top 20% most active pilots who
fly 49% of all contests and 61% of all Nationals. Strong opposition to FAI rules was
found among pilots who are the second most active contest flying cohort – but fly
2017 SSA Rules Committee Meeting Minutes
Reedsville PA - November 11, 2017
4
Regionals about 4 times as frequently as Nationals. This second group represents 23% of
all Nationals entries and 23% of all Regionals entries.
A summary of poll responses appears below (Note: “Favor FAI� includes respondents
who answered ‘yes’ to favoring a fast switch to FAI rules OR a gradual switch to FAI
rules (14 pilots answered ‘yes’ to both questions – this was interpreted as favoring a fast
switchover):
The RC discussed how much particular details and implications of FAI rules are broadly
or deeply understood since there were broadly unfavorable responses in the poll about
specific rule changes in the direction of the FAI approach. Questions were raised as to
whether unpopular changes in specific rules could have implications for participation.
a. Energy control at starts
b. Team flying
c. Tasking / landouts
d. Finishes
e. Penalties (e.g. FAI rules have less use of graduated penalties, greater use of contest
disqualification for multiple offenses).
f. Permissible for pilots to receive tactical support from ground crews
g. Elimination of the MAT
h. Scoring formulas and associated incentives. (Note that these may will be under
consideration for changes to FAI rules in 2018).
In addition, questions in the poll about specific rules changes that are part of the FAI
system generated lower support then the overall support for a move to FAI at the high
level (e.g. support for distance credit inside AT turnpoint cylinders, start out the top,
etc.). This led to discussion about how much US pilots may like the idea of FAI rules
but dislike many of the specific details. This led to a further discussion about the
potential to use local procedures to reduce the impact of some of the more significant
changes that FAI rules require that have less support among US pilots. For instance,
should a US shift to FAI rules mandate use of meters and kilometers and allow team
flying at all contests, or should there be adjustments to accommodate the desires of a broader group of US contest pilots?
Quintile
Rank by #
Contests
FlownÂ*Â*
Favor
FAI
Favor
Fast
Switch
to FAI
Total
Resp
Response
Rate (% all
PRL pilots)
%
Favor
FAI
%Â*Â*
Fast
Switch
Avg
PRL
#
Cont/
Yr/
Pilot
%
Total
Nats/
Yr
%
Total
Cont/
Yr
1 40 24 59 64% 68% 41% 89 2.24 61% 49%
2 12 7 33 36% 36% 21% 84 1.05 23% 23%
3 17 6 30 33% 57% 20% 67 0.68 10% 15%
4 7 5 14 15% 50% 36% 76 0.33 5% 7%
5 10 2 13 16% 77% 15% 29 0.30 1% 6%
TOTAL
RESP 86 44 149 33% 58% 30% 69 0.92 100% 100%
2017 SSA Rules Committee Meeting Minutes
Reedsville PA - November 11, 2017
5
Some expressed the view that a change to FAI rules should be “all or nothing� as
diluting the rules to accommodate US pilot preferences (to not allow team flying or
ground crew assistance at contests, for instance) would negate the whole purpose of
moving to FAI rules which is to prepare pilots to fly at the WGC. It was noted that many
countries have elaborate local procedures and some countries don’t use FAI rules at all
(e.g. Canada, UK and Australia) so the “all or nothing� view varies around the world. It
was agreed that it will be critical to craft specific proposals (pure FAI, vs FAI rules that
accommodate some US practices vs current US rules) in order to obtain clear guidance
from the US racing pilot community on a rules transition. It was also agreed that all of
this will take significant effort which will need to begin quickly.
Actions:
• Create a description of each major area of FAI rules that is different from US rules,
without description of potential implications.
• Articulate two versions of each area of FAI rules – one without any local procedures,
one with local procedures to address some of the significant differences as much as
practical within the FAI framework (e.g. may not include adding back MAT task,
could include minimum finish height like was used at Uvalde).
• Recruit knowledgeable proponent(s) of FAI rules and proponent(s) of US rules to
opine on pros/cons of each approach.
• Craft specific proposal(s) for polling of pilot group.

Best. Tom #711.