Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:07:05 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Quoted text
"Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!"

PROBABLY A WISE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMIDATED BY GROUND LAUNCHING.. BTW. THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE, SAFE WINCH THAN AEROTOWS DAILY AND YEARLY WORLD WIDE BASIS. SOME GLIDERPORTS DOING HUNDREDS PER DAY AND NOTMTO MENTION THE RESULTING MORE COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED PILOTS, ESPECIALLY AT LOW ALTITUDES AND VARIETY OF CIRCUITS.

Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:11:22 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:

Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.

Airline pilot?

Any winch launching experience at all to justify your position or are you just going by your "experience".

Funny, I get he same response from otherwise rational pilots when I suggest that our club teach aerobatics in our K-21 or Blanik L-13AC (the one with the short wings, made for acro). "That's dangerous, people will crash, no one in their right minds want to do acro"... or the best: "I personally enjoy acro, but you can't trust all those other idiots - they'll go out and do something stupid."

Kirk
66
(Tow pilot, ground launch endorsed, trained in acro and love it)

"Fly without an engine?!?!?Â* I like to have an engine up front!" How
many times have I heard that?

Some people don't like roller coasters, either.Â* They also miss out on a
lot of fun.

On 2/16/2018 9:46 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:11:22 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:

Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.
Airline pilot?

Any winch launching experience at all to justify your position or are you just going by your "experience".

Funny, I get he same response from otherwise rational pilots when I suggest that our club teach aerobatics in our K-21 or Blanik L-13AC (the one with the short wings, made for acro). "That's dangerous, people will crash, no one in their right minds want to do acro"... or the best: "I personally enjoy acro, but you can't trust all those other idiots - they'll go out and do something stupid."

Kirk
66
(Tow pilot, ground launch endorsed, trained in acro and love it)

--
Dan, 5J

Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.

I don’t have an issue with winch tows persay other then the relatively low altitude they get you to. Wouldn’t really work where I am at.

The issue I have is the typical lash up they have in the US and the qualification of the winch operator not to mention the maintenance of the winch.

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:44:58 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.

I don’t have an issue with winch tows persay other then the relatively low altitude they get you to. Wouldn’t really work where I am at.

The issue I have is the typical lash up they have in the US and the qualification of the winch operator not to mention the maintenance of the winch.

Ok. Sorry I probably came off as a bit of a dick - not intended; but I do find that aviation background seems to have a lot to do with perceived risk/reward in soaring.

I come from a military fighter background - having learned to fly in High School, so tend to see the risks in soaring from a very different perspective. Edge of the envelope is what it is all about, by it's very nature, and that is why it appeals to me; skill, currency, knowledge, training, all need to be up to the task.

Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!", without any winch experience the natural response from someone trained in a highly structured, "middle of the envelope" flying environment" would be "that looks dangerous, what if the winch quits or fails in some way. But the non-intuitive answer is that during a winch launch, the pilot is totally in control of the safety of the launch at all times, and can always make a safe landing! Too slow - release and land straight ahead.. Too fast, dump the nose or release. Cable break, dump the nose and land. Erratic launch by a weak winch or new operator - release and land.

OTOH - aero tows can develop into an unsafe situation without the glider pilot being able to do much about it: loss of power right after takeoff over unlandable terrain; tow pilot determined to take you downwind in a 2-33; slow tow when you are ballasted to the max, etc...

Then there are the ways glider pilots try to kill tow pilots! Hard to hurt a winch launch operator unless you crash on the winch.

Kirk
66

On 2/17/2018 9:35 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!"
That was my exact response when offered a flight in a glider.Â* But I
took the flight anyway.Â* And five more and soloed.Â* I haven't looked
back since.
--
Dan, 5J

I come from a military fighter background - having learned to fly in High School, so tend to see the risks in soaring from a very different perspective. Edge of the envelope is what it is all about, by it's very nature, and that is why it appeals to me; skill, currency, knowledge, training, all need to be up to the task.

Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!", without any winch experience the natural response from someone trained in a highly structured, "middle of the envelope" flying environment" would be "that looks dangerous, what if the winch quits or fails in some way. But the non-intuitive answer is that during a winch launch, the pilot is totally in control of the safety of the launch at all times, and can always make a safe landing! Too slow - release and land straight ahead. Too fast, dump the nose or release. Cable break, dump the nose and land. Erratic launch by a weak winch or new operator - release and land.



Kirk
66

You may want to revisit your immediate actions in the event of "...Too fast, dump the nose or release..." to something like, signal too fast or release...

Dan
2D

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 2:39:26 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:

You may want to revisit your immediate actions in the event of "...Too fast, dump the nose or release..." to something like, signal too fast or release...

Dan
2D

You are correct, of course. I was trying to point out that a winch launch provides many options for solving a problem which may not be obvious to someone who has not tried it.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Originally Posted by kirk.stant

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:44:58 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:[color=blue][i]
Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.
snip

Then there are the ways glider pilots try to kill tow pilots! Hard to hurt a winch launch operator unless you crash on the winch.

Kirk
66

I appreciate the fact that the tow pilot has his ass on the line when towing gliders aloft and that figures high in my respect for the job they do. It's entirely possible for a winch driver to kill a glider pilot without breaking a sweat or being in danger himself.

As posted earlier I only launch with tow pilots or winch drivers that I feel I can trust with my neck

:-) Colin

Originally Posted by Charles Longley

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:07:05 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Quoted text
"Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!"

PROBABLY A WISE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMIDATED BY GROUND LAUNCHING.. BTW. THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE, SAFE WINCH THAN AEROTOWS DAILY AND YEARLY WORLD WIDE BASIS. SOME GLIDERPORTS DOING HUNDREDS PER DAY AND NOTMTO MENTION THE RESULTING MORE COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED PILOTS, ESPECIALLY AT LOW ALTITUDES AND VARIETY OF CIRCUITS.

Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.

And here's the thing, there are some towpilots I won't fly behind as they are just as dodgy as some of the winch setups you've seen.

All said and done, I aerotow more than I winch launch and will at times take neither and stay on the ground as the quality of the operator (winch driver/towpilot) doesn't inspire confidence.

YMMV
:-) Colin