Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?

Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 8/22/2004 10:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:



Only 3 hits were required to brring down a 4 engined heavy bomber and even a
P47 couldn't survive more than a hit or two. (which made the Me 109 so
deady if it got to within 200m) http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html


During our training in WW II the number of hits to bring down any plane was a
point of important study for us. Bringing down a heavy bomber with three hits
regardless of where it was hit is in itself an unreasonable concept. Studies
showed that an ME 109 would have to put almost 75 hits into a B-17 to bring it
down. The most vulnerable enemy fighter was the Jap zero (after the JU 87) and
it needed 12 hite to bring it down.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 8/22/2004 10:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:



Only 3 hits were required to brring down a 4 engined heavy bomber and
even a
P47 couldn't survive more than a hit or two. (which made the Me 109 so
deady if it got to within 200m)
http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html


During our training in WW II the number of hits to bring down any plane
was a
point of important study for us. Bringing down a heavy bomber with three
hits
regardless of where it was hit is in itself an unreasonable concept.
Studies
showed that an ME 109 would have to put almost 75 hits into a B-17 to
bring it
down. The most vulnerable enemy fighter was the Jap zero (after the JU
87) and
it needed 12 hite to bring it down.


That kinda dependson what its hit with and where its hit doesnt it !

The German jet fighters carried a 30mm cannon with rather more
stopping power than the .50 calibre machine guns carried
by US aircraft.

Keith





----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 8/23/2004 7:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 8/22/2004 10:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:



Only 3 hits were required to brring down a 4 engined heavy bomber and
even a
P47 couldn't survive more than a hit or two. (which made the Me 109 so
deady if it got to within 200m)
http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html


During our training in WW II the number of hits to bring down any plane
was a
point of important study for us. Bringing down a heavy bomber with three
hits
regardless of where it was hit is in itself an unreasonable concept.
Studies
showed that an ME 109 would have to put almost 75 hits into a B-17 to
bring it
down. The most vulnerable enemy fighter was the Jap zero (after the JU
87) and
it needed 12 hite to bring it down.


That kinda dependson what its hit with and where its hit doesnt it !

The German jet fighters carried a 30mm cannon with rather more
stopping power than the .50 calibre machine guns carried
by US aircraft.

Keith





----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000
Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
=---


Y'think maybe the guys doing the surveys of battle damage were aware of that?
I'll bet they might have been. If you know it, I guess they may have known it
as well. Y'think so?





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?


Y'think maybe the guys doing the surveys of battle damage were aware of
that?

I'm sure they were. It was after all the reason the germans
uprated the cannon fit.

I'll bet they might have been. If you know it, I guess they may have known
it
as well. Y'think so?

Sure. Doesnt alter the fact that a 30mm cannon can blow a hole
the size of your fist in a B-17 and its not going to take
too many of those before its in deep ****.

Based on the damage done to downed B-17's the Luftwaffe estimated
that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a
B-17 but as few as 3 hits from the 30mm.

see

http://www.afa.org/magazine/1993/0993Against.asp

Keith




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 8/23/2004 8:58 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?


Y'think maybe the guys doing the surveys of battle damage were aware of
that?

I'm sure they were. It was after all the reason the germans
uprated the cannon fit.

I'll bet they might have been. If you know it, I guess they may have known
it
as well. Y'think so?

Sure. Doesnt alter the fact that a 30mm cannon can blow a hole
the size of your fist in a B-17 and its not going to take
too many of those before its in deep ****.

Based on the damage done to downed B-17's the Luftwaffe estimated
that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a
B-17 but as few as 3 hits from the 30mm.

see

http://www.afa.org/magazine/1993/0993Against.asp

Keith




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000
Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
=---


We took more hits than that on Willie the Wolf and I am still here to tell
about it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 8/23/2004 8:58 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Gun, machine gun and/or cannon?


Y'think maybe the guys doing the surveys of battle damage were aware of
that?

I'm sure they were. It was after all the reason the germans
uprated the cannon fit.

I'll bet they might have been. If you know it, I guess they may have
known
it
as well. Y'think so?

Sure. Doesnt alter the fact that a 30mm cannon can blow a hole
the size of your fist in a B-17 and its not going to take
too many of those before its in deep ****.

Based on the damage done to downed B-17's the Luftwaffe estimated
that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a
B-17 but as few as 3 hits from the 30mm.

see

http://www.afa.org/magazine/1993/0993Against.asp

Keith




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000
Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via
Encryption
=---


We took more hits than that on Willie the Wolf and I am still here to tell
about it.

Well, you have told us a lot of other crap that we have not bought into,
either, so what's new? How many 30mm hits did you take? Heck, you have also
told us your unit *never* missed its assigned target, which is of course
patently false, as *no* unit could honestly make that claim during WWII
(proven by the fact that your unit was NOT recognized as having the best
bombing accuracy amongst B-26 units in the ETO, and the one that *was*
acknowledged having around five or so of their assigned targets that they
did not hit).

Brooks



Arthur Kramer