Rogue IFR

"BTIZ" wrote in message news:w8%lb.72583$La.58656@fed1read02...
at least the "signature" might not be faked.. I'd ask him to stop doing that
right away..

The signature of the safety pilot is not required.

SM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
That doesn't mean ATC can rely on them to KNOW something.

Of course it does. If a pilot says he's in the clouds ATC knows he's in
IMC.

Sorry. I thought the "...about the VFR target" was implied obviously enough
for you to pick up on it. Apparently not. I'll try to keep things simpler
for you in the future, so you can keep up.

The airplanes don't have to be at exactly the same point. If a pilot
reports he's in the clouds then any other aircraft within 2000 feet
horizontally, 1000 feet above, or 500 feet below of the reporting aircraft
is in IMC.

ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another aircraft
is within those limits. Furthermore, that assumes accurate reporting by the
VFR target's transponder. Again, an unidentified target would not qualify
for that assumption.

I was responding only to the part of your message that was incorrect.

There was no such part.

Pete

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

It wouldn't matter. The pilot under discussion here doesn't have an
instrument rating, so he can't get an SVFR clearance anyway.


That restriction applies only between sunset and sunrise.

More like between 30 minutes after sunset and 30 minutes before sunrise,
roughly, the rule of thumb for night ops in the continental US, not to be
confused with the one hour after sundown rule for logging night flight time.

The ICAO definition is when the center the sun is 6 degrees or more below
the horizon which is about 24 minutes after dusk/before dawn at the equator,
sometimes much longer than that above the arctic circle or below the
antarctic circle

In article . net,
Greg Goodknight wrote:
instrument rating, so he can't get an SVFR clearance anyway.

That restriction applies only between sunset and sunrise.

More like between 30 minutes after sunset and 30 minutes before sunrise,
roughly, the rule of thumb for night ops in the continental US, not to be
confused with the one hour after sundown rule for logging night flight time.

Err, 'night' in the FAR is defined in 14 CFR Part 1 and it's based on
civil twilight.

The SVFR regulations in 91.157(b)(4) says sunset-sunrise, not "night",
so the other poster was exactly right.

It's 61.57(b) (night currency) that uses the "hour after sunset".

The ICAO definition is when the center the sun is 6 degrees or more below
the horizon

Which is the definition of the end of civil twilight.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Newps wrote in message news:Jw0nb.28169$275.50566@attbi_s53...
The difference here is that the field you were flying to is reporting
good VFR and you had that weather. My guy either didn't bother to get
the ATIS, which is why I told him the field is IFR, or he got the
weather and either didn't understand or didn't care. Either way saying
"the field is IFR say intentions" covers it.

It does to someone who knows the drill. It doesn't to someone
who badly wants to land but can't remember whatcha ask for --
special something?

I can tell the difference between someone who is in over their head
and someone who isn't. It is obvious on the radio, just like you heard
with that other aircraft.

Well, I guess my point is, it was obvious to one controller -- but
not to the first controller, and not to me.

I don't know if you've been around long enough to read Greg Travis'
story of being hijacked, but one of his problems was, HE SOUNDED
SO CALM flying around with a shotgun pointed at him, that the
controllers didn't take him seriously at first and jeopardized
his safety by repeatedly questioning him.
(the story is here if anyone didn't see it and is interested:
http://www.prime-mover.org/Personal/travis.txt and btw Greg has
an awesome, informative site in general)

So clearly there's a margin of error in what's obvious and to whom,
even taking into account differences in personality and training.

Seems like cause for a bit of "benefit of the doubt" in the air,
to me.

YMMV.

Ciao,
Sydney

"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message
ink.net...

More like between 30 minutes after sunset and 30 minutes before sunrise,
roughly, the rule of thumb for night ops in the continental US, not to be
confused with the one hour after sundown rule for logging night flight
time.


No, it's between sunset and sunrise, except for Alaska.


§91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR
operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of
this section, instead of those contained in §91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL
within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral
boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an
airport.

(b) Special VFR operations may only be conducted --

(1) With an ATC clearance;

(2) Clear of clouds;

(3) Except for helicopters, when flight visibility is at least 1 statute
mile; and

(4) Except for helicopters, between sunrise and sunset (or in Alaska, when
the sun is 6 degrees or more below the horizon) unless --

(i) The person being granted the ATC clearance meets the applicable
requirements for instrument flight under part 61 of this chapter; and

(ii) The aircraft is equipped as required in §91.205(d).

(c) No person may take off or land an aircraft (other than a helicopter)
under special VFR --

(1) Unless ground visibility is at least 1 statute mile; or

(2) If ground visibility is not reported, unless flight visibility is at
least 1 statute mile. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term flight
visibility includes the visibility from the cockpit of an aircraft in
takeoff position if:

(i) The flight is conducted under this part 91; and

(ii) The airport at which the aircraft is located is a satellite airport
that does not have weather reporting capabilities.

(d) The determination of visibility by a pilot in accordance with paragraph
(c)(2) of this section is not an official weather report or an official
ground visibility report.

[Amdt. 91-235, 58 FR 51968, Oct. 5, 1993, as amended by Amdt. 91-247, 60 FR
66874, Dec. 27, 1995; Amdt. 91-262, 65 FR 16116, Mar. 24, 2000]

Snowbird wrote:

I can tell the difference between someone who is in over their head
and someone who isn't. It is obvious on the radio, just like you heard
with that other aircraft.


Well, I guess my point is, it was obvious to one controller

Yep, the one not being trained.


-- but
not to the first controller, and not to me.

I wouldn't think so.



Seems like cause for a bit of "benefit of the doubt" in the air,
to me.

There are other factors too. Is he flying a single engine like a 172 or
a cherokee? Does he sound young or old, etc?

Newps wrote in message news:5Nvnb.50619$e01.125474@attbi_s02...
Snowbird wrote:
I can tell the difference between someone who is in over their head
and someone who isn't. It is obvious on the radio, just like you heard
with that other aircraft.

Well, I guess my point is, it was obvious to one controller

Yep, the one not being trained.

I don't think any of the controllers working Greg Travis
were trainees.

Clearly even experienced ATCS are not infalliable in their
abilities to tell whether or not a pilot is really in trouble.

Seems like cause for a bit of "benefit of the doubt" in the air,
to me.

There are other factors too.

Maybe. I think it boils down to this: you believe you can
always tell what's really going on in the cockpit when you're
sitting in a chair behind a mic, so you get to make judgements
and "treat (pilots) like the idiots they are".

I think everyone is falliable, *particularly* when they're
sitting in a chair on the ground and not up in the furball,
so it's better not to treat anyone like an idiot. Even if
they really are.

Not for the first time, we disagree.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"Happy Dog" wrote in message
...

I agree. Could the flight be cleared into the CZ but not cleared to
land due to visibility?


Not if he's operating VFR. There are no clearances for entry of Class
D airspace by VFR aircraft in the US.

What about a transition clearance?

"Judah" wrote in message
...

What about a transition clearance?


It does not exist.