Help interpreting an approach chart (KCCR LDA Rwy 19R)

"Bee" wrote in message ...

COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar transitions to
this AIP. From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN.


What VOR to the LOC? What's the length of the NDB to KANAN segment?

There are no doubt several additional suitable non-radar routes available.
Non-radar routes don't need to be "authorized", they simply need to meet
applicable criteria.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Bee" wrote in message ...

COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar transitions to
this AIP. From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN.



What VOR to the LOC? What's the length of the NDB to KANAN segment?

Is this a chart clinic?

JOANS is identified by the SGD 074 and the CCR 004. From there inbound
the course is prescribed by the locaizer.

KANAN is the five letter identifier for the NDB, but you knew that.

"No doubt there are serveral assition suitable non-radar routes available?"

Oh really, where would we find those?

The IAP has to begin without radar at either REJOY or COLLI. Now, if
you mean something else is "suitable," as opposed to meeting the
requirements of FAA directives, including 7110.65R, then "suitable"
would equal "roll your own."

There are no doubt several additional suitable non-radar routes available.
Non-radar routes don't need to be "authorized", they simply need to meet
applicable criteria.

"Bee" wrote in message ...

JOANS is identified by the SGD 074 and the CCR 004. From there inbound
the course is prescribed by the locaizer.


Incorrect. JOANS is identified on this IAP in two ways; the SGD 074R and
the LOC, the LOC and CCR 8.1 DME. The CCR 004R is not depicted.



KANAN is the five letter identifier for the NDB, but you knew that.


Of course I did. Did you? You wrote, "...from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN."
So what's the length of that NDB to KANAN segment?



"No doubt there are serveral assition suitable non-radar routes
available?"

Oh really, where would we find those?


IFR enroute low altitude charts L-2 and L-3.



The IAP has to begin without radar at either REJOY or COLLI. Now, if you
mean something else is "suitable," as opposed to meeting the requirements
of FAA directives, including 7110.65R, then "suitable" would equal "roll
your own.


Incorrect. Without radar an appropriate nonradar route to an IAF must be
assigned. From the northeast, V6 to REJOY is the way to go. From the south
V6 to COLLI and then direct to KANAN is fine, but so is any other route to
KANAN from another navaid that remains within navaid altitude and distance
limitations. For example, traffic from the northwest could be assigned V108
to SGD and then direct to KANAN. The distance between SGD and KANAN is 18
miles, well within limits.

The limit on the LOM is 15 miles, so any airway fix within 15 miles of KANAN
can provide a usable route. At and below 12,000 MSL an L or H class VOR is
good for 40 miles and a T class VOR is good for 25 miles. So any direct
route to KANAN from an L or H class VOR within 55 miles of it is within
limits, and any direct route to KANAN from a T class VOR within 40 miles of
it is within limits, assuming there are no service limitations on the
affected radials. If you examine the charts and use a bit of imagination
you will no doubt find several additional suitable non-radar routes.


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...4/atc0401.html

http://skyvector.com/

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://...5320LDA19R.PDF

Bee wrote in :

JOANS is identified by the SGD 074 and the CCR 004. From there
inbound the course is prescribed by the locaizer.

Where is it charted that JOANS is defined by the CCR 004?

Bee wrote:

COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar transitions
to this AIP.

REJOY isn't a transition, it's an IAF. You can't to from COLLI to
JOANS (if that is what you are attempting to say). The COLLI
transition sends you to the KANAN (LOM)

From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to
KANAN.

WHAT? You can start at REJOY or you can start at KANAN.
You can't start at the CONCORD VOR and joint he localizer.

Ron Natalie wrote:

Bee wrote:

COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar
transitions to this AIP.


REJOY isn't a transition, it's an IAF. You can't to from COLLI to
JOANS (if that is what you are attempting to say). The COLLI
transition sends you to the KANAN (LOM)

From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN.


WHAT? You can start at REJOY or you can start at KANAN.
You can't start at the CONCORD VOR and joint he localizer.

You didn't understand me or I didn't make it clear. The transition from
the north begins at REJOY, then via JOANS and the LOC NoPT.

From the south it charts at COLLI feeder fix and proceeds via NDB
navigation to KANAN.

Steve is technically correct that the IAP could begin at KANAN NDB, but
I doubt NorCal would ever do that. The only feasible routing would be
V-108 from the west to CCR, then direct KANAN. That would require ADF
equipment just as would the feeder route from COLLI. ADF isn't required
for this procedure, so for the non-ADF aircraft the only non-radar entry
is viar REJOY.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

Steve is technically correct that the IAP could begin at KANAN NDB, but I
doubt NorCal would ever do that.


It COULD begin at KANAN? KANAN is an IAF, do you know what an IAF is?



The only feasible routing would be V-108
from the west to CCR, then direct KANAN. That would require ADF equipment
just as would the feeder route from COLLI. ADF isn't required for this
procedure, so for the non-ADF aircraft the only non-radar entry is viar
REJOY.


There are several feasible routes, as I explained in an earlier message.

"Marco Leon" wrote in message
news

I would use the localizer. That said, there a couple of things that are
confusing. CCR looks like it's depicted as a bit west of the localizer.
I'm assuming it is to scale since it is within the plan view's circle.
However, JOANS intersection is on the localizer but it is identified as
being 8.1 miles on the DME from CCR. Usually when an intersection is
identified using an off route VOR, there's some sort of reference line
that is thinner than the route.

JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial of SGD. No
similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial is used to define JOANS
on this IAP.



Either the VOR *is* on the localizer or it's too close to the localizer
for a separate line depiction.


CCR is 0.56 NM from KANAN on a true bearing of 261. The VOR is not on the
localizer.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Marco Leon" wrote in message
news
I would use the localizer. That said, there a couple of things that are
confusing. CCR looks like it's depicted as a bit west of the localizer.
I'm assuming it is to scale since it is within the plan view's circle.
However, JOANS intersection is on the localizer but it is identified as
being 8.1 miles on the DME from CCR. Usually when an intersection is
identified using an off route VOR, there's some sort of reference line
that is thinner than the route.


JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial of SGD. No
similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial is used to define JOANS
on this IAP.

Incorrect.



Either the VOR *is* on the localizer or it's too close to the localizer
for a separate line depiction.



CCR is 0.56 NM from KANAN on a true bearing of 261. The VOR is not on the
localizer.

Bee wrote in :

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial
of SGD. No similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial
is used to define JOANS on this IAP.

Incorrect.

No, Steven is correct. The CCR VOR-DME is NOT on the LDA Localizer.
The DME portion, however, may be used to define JOANS at 8.1 DME (in
lieu of the 074 SGD radial).

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