Flying through known or forecast icing

Ok, I know this is one of those "it depends" answers, but I'm curious as to
what folks are willing to do in the winter time.

Assumptions:

Single engine piston aircraft with NO de-icing equipment.

Situation:

It's wintertime. You want to fly XC and there are midlevel clouds in the
forecast with the potential for icing to occur.

It looks like the band is thin enough to climb through and cruise in the
clear above the weather.

SO:

1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have icing, can you legally
and would you climb through the layer to get up high for your trip? how
thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent in the layer, etc. What would
you be willing to risk transition through possible icing?

2) Would that change any if those same conditions were now reported icing
from a recent PIREP?

3) If it's reported, can you transit the cloud layer legally?

4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time you get to your
destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported icing in it. Can or
or would you be willing to transit this layer to land at this destionation
or would you turn around or divert to land someplace to stay out of the
clouds?

Thanks.

John Doe wrote:
Ok, I know this is one of those "it depends" answers, but I'm curious as to
what folks are willing to do in the winter time.

Assumptions:

Single engine piston aircraft with NO de-icing equipment.

Situation:

It's wintertime. You want to fly XC and there are midlevel clouds in the
forecast with the potential for icing to occur.

It looks like the band is thin enough to climb through and cruise in the
clear above the weather.

SO:

1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have icing, can you legally
and would you climb through the layer to get up high for your trip? how
thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent in the layer, etc. What would
you be willing to risk transition through possible icing?
**A. Known icing vs forecast are two different animals. It has been my
experience that ice generally appears in longitudinal bands of varying
depth and width. I'll make a climb thru the clouds watching for any
signs of ice and with my anti ice on. Most of the time I can get to on
top conditions or out of the ice band before any serious problems
occur. If I am cruising and start picking up ice, I'll usually ask for
higher...my reasoning being the temps will drop even more reducing the
possibility of more ice and if not, I can always go lower where
hopefully the temps will get above the ice range. Either way, an
altitude change nearly always cures the problem. Over the mountains you
are limited in altitude reduction?

2) Would that change any if those same conditions were now reported icing
from a recent PIREP?
**B If there is a current PIREP of ice, I'll get a higher altitude
rather than take a chance of taking on a load that I can't handle. Like
I said, horizontal bands of ice and if you hit it the long way, you'll
be in the ice for ??? If you penetrate it perpendicular, your exposure
to ice is much shorter. However, even brief exposure to severe ice can
bring you down like an aluminum snowflake and not very pretty!

3) If it's reported, can you transit the cloud layer legally?
**C Not unless you have an aircraft certified for known icing.

4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time you get to your
destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported icing in it. Can or
or would you be willing to transit this layer to land at this destionation
or would you turn around or divert to land someplace to stay out of the
clouds?
**D. Not this pilot! I'll take a divert rather than drop down thru
known icing. Twice I have been forced to the ground with rapid ice
accumulation and was lucky to make it to the end of a runway both
times. I've picked up severe ice in a number of aircraft that had
anti-ice and de-ice equipment and still did some serious perspiring
while I got thru it. Ain't something you can fool with for long without
going to the ground like an ice cube!
PIREPS are the most reliable source of icing information and I'll
always ask/give them even if I get just a trace. I flew regular freight
routes in the Great Lakes, and in the Rockies with single and twin
engine aircraft for years.

Thanks.

How about the flight when you are VFR and encounter freezing rain with
resulting clear ice accumulation? Had it happen long about 1967 in a
brand new Cessna Cardinal in Louisiana and barely made it to the
overrun area at the approach end of the airport in Hammond, LA. Never
saw it coming and suddenly I was covered in ice......

John Doe wrote:

1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have icing, can you legally
and would you climb through the layer to get up high for your trip? how
thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent in the layer, etc. What would
you be willing to risk transition through possible icing?

No. Legally, forecast ice is "known icing."

4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time you get to your
destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported icing in it. Can or
or would you be willing to transit this layer to land at this destionation
or would you turn around or divert to land someplace to stay out of the
clouds?

If I want to stay VFR, I won't be transiting any clouds. Being unwilling to risk
a violation if I file IFR and then fly through reported icing, I would divert.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that someone at
ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are sadly
mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that
controllers are not interested in the certification status of an airplane or
a pilot.

A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification told me
that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no attempt to
escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted in an
accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a Center
operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a cloud.

Bob Gardner

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:vPXnf.12379$Jz6.1184@trnddc06...
John Doe wrote:

1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have icing, can you
legally and would you climb through the layer to get up high for your
trip? how thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent in the layer, etc.
What would you be willing to risk transition through possible icing?

No. Legally, forecast ice is "known icing."

4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time you get to your
destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported icing in it. Can
or or would you be willing to transit this layer to land at this
destionation or would you turn around or divert to land someplace to stay
out of the clouds?

If I want to stay VFR, I won't be transiting any clouds. Being unwilling
to risk a violation if I file IFR and then fly through reported icing, I
would divert.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Bob Gardner wrote:
George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that someone at
ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are sadly
mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that
controllers are not interested in the certification status of an airplane or
a pilot.

No, I don't think "they" are just waiting to write me up, but the OP asked if it
was *legal*, and it's not.

A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification told me
that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no attempt to
escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted in an
accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a Center
operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a cloud.

I've been told that too; however, I'm not going to go through clouds without an
IFR clearance, and I wouldn't take either of the aircraft I've owned through an
area in which icing has been reported. Now, if icing had only been *forecast* in
that area but not reported, and the bottom of the cloud deck was well above
minimums, I would chance it.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

George,
I've been away for a few years, but when did forecast icing
become known icing without a pirep or physical indications on the
ground? If they are the same thing now days, why are aircraft certified
for "Flight in known icing (FIKI)" and not just flight in icing
conditions?


-----Original Message-----
From: George Patterson ]
Posted At: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:16 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Flying through known or forecast icing
Subject: Flying through known or forecast icing

Bob Gardner wrote:
George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that
someone
at
ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are
sadly
mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that
controllers are not interested in the certification status of an
airplane or
a pilot.

No, I don't think "they" are just waiting to write me up, but the OP
asked
if it
was *legal*, and it's not.

A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification
told
me
that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no
attempt to
escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted
in
an
accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a
Center
operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a
cloud.

I've been told that too; however, I'm not going to go through clouds
without an
IFR clearance, and I wouldn't take either of the aircraft I've owned
through an
area in which icing has been reported. Now, if icing had only been
*forecast* in
that area but not reported, and the bottom of the cloud deck was well
above
minimums, I would chance it.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights
belong
to
your slightly older self.

I can answer that one: in 1974.

2nd question: forecast icing IS "KNOWN ICING *CONDITIONS*".

Jim Carter wrote:
George,
I've been away for a few years, but when did forecast icing
become known icing without a pirep or physical indications on the
ground? If they are the same thing now days, why are aircraft certified
for "Flight in known icing (FIKI)" and not just flight in icing
conditions?

You sure have been away for a few years. As George said, in Adminstrator vs
Bowen, in 1974, the Administrative Law Judge said, more or less, "known does
not mean a near-certainty of icing conditions, only that icing conditions
are being reported or forecast."

This was updated, and re-emphasized in 2005. Read this:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...05/pc0508.html

In a case not noted in either source, the NTSB referred to pilot reports as
"anectodal evidence" and said that pilots had to rely on government reports,
period. This 2005 case gives pilot reports a little more slack.

Bob Gardner


"Jim Carter" wrote in message
et...
George,
I've been away for a few years, but when did forecast icing
become known icing without a pirep or physical indications on the
ground? If they are the same thing now days, why are aircraft certified
for "Flight in known icing (FIKI)" and not just flight in icing
conditions?


-----Original Message-----
From: George Patterson ]
Posted At: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:16 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Flying through known or forecast icing
Subject: Flying through known or forecast icing

Bob Gardner wrote:
George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that
someone
at
ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are
sadly
mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that
controllers are not interested in the certification status of an
airplane or
a pilot.

No, I don't think "they" are just waiting to write me up, but the OP
asked
if it
was *legal*, and it's not.

A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification
told
me
that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no
attempt to
escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted
in
an
accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a
Center
operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a
cloud.

I've been told that too; however, I'm not going to go through clouds
without an
IFR clearance, and I wouldn't take either of the aircraft I've owned
through an
area in which icing has been reported. Now, if icing had only been
*forecast* in
that area but not reported, and the bottom of the cloud deck was well
above
minimums, I would chance it.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights
belong
to
your slightly older self.

Bob Gardner wrote:

George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that someone at
ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are sadly
mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that
controllers are not interested in the certification status of an airplane or
a pilot.

A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification told me
that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no attempt to
escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted in an
accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a Center
operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a cloud.

This has certainly been my experience also. I recently flew from
Lebanon, NH to ELM on a day with the freezing level around 4,000 and an
MEA of 6,000 across the mountains of southern VT. I picked up some
light rime and requested higher and got between layers. The clouds
again arose to smite me, so I requested higher again and broke out on
top at 10,000. My requests were calm and matter of fact and the
controllers were extremely accomodating. There was never even a hint
that they questioned why I was flying an Arrow on such a day.

Matt