VOR/DME Approach Question

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"Chip Jones" wrote
The trainee and I did discuss where the "full approach" began. Since we
rarely work aircraft approaching RKW from the east, it was a legitimate
question in my mind.

Chip, I'm honestly not trying to be a pain, but while the question was
a legitimate one in your mind, it wasn't legitimate regulatorily. In
other words, I think the source of the confusion is a less-than-ideal
understanding of the applicable rules. Don't feel too bad - I just
saw the same level of understanding in a 1500+ hour multi/IFR pilot I
flew with recently.

Hey man, I don't feel bad at all and I don't see you being a pain. I was
the guy who posted the question, and I'm the guy who was supposed to know
the answer before hand. The question shouldn't even come up, hehehe. I
imagine my "IFR" time is around 16,000 hours of live air traffic control.
I'd say I still do have a less than ideal understanding of the applicable
rules pertaining to certain IAP's. That's why I drop in here from time to
time.


This aircraft had GPS, so I said
I though the full approach in this case begins at the IAF (MINES)

The full approach ALWAYS begins at the IAF (or an IAF if there is more
than one) regardless of how the aircraft is equipped.

and we could clear him to MINES via GPS-direct.

There's the difference. Since the aircraft had RNAV (not necessarily
GPS - any kind of approved RNAV would be fine, since the approach does
not start until the IAF is crossed) you could clear him direct to
MINES. Without RNAV, you would need an alternate plan.

Because of ATC workload, without RNAV equipment the *pilot* would need an
alternate plan in this case. We were busy. We have no obligation to vector
non-Rnav aircraft on an unpublished route. In this particular event, he'd
have likely been sent direct HCH because it was the easy thing for the
trainee to do. HCH is on the plate.

[snipped]

Now I'm wondering what I could have done with this UH-60 if it had been
a /A
instead of a /G. We don't clear /A's direct to intersections. Where
does
the "full approach" begin for a non-RNAV on this procedure. I can't
vector
to final at this location.

I'm pretty sure you can vector an aircraft to intercept an airway -
can you do the same for a random VOR radial? How about "Fly heading
XXX, intercept the HCH-060 radial, track the radial to MINES, cleared
for the full approach, report procedure turn inbound?"



I can vector to a random VOR radial, but I cannot vector to the final
approach course. The HCH-060R is also the final approach course inside of
MINES. MINES (and the HCH 27 DME) is not depicted on the scope. Vectors
are workload permitting, and we were busy elsewhere. Therefore, I don't
know whether I would have vectored here or not in the event.

If the Army had crashed and burned (say the tail rotor fell off, nothing
related to the approach), how would I explain to the rules lawyers that I
was merely vectoring to a random radial that also happened to define the
FAC? I cannot clear aircraft operating on non-published routes (like a
random vector to join the 060R) for approach until they are established on
a segment of the IAP or a published route or I assign an altitude to
maintain until they are so established (or they are doing a GPS or RNAV
approach). These rules exist as a result of other ATC screw-ups in the
past. A vector to intercept the FAC radial, followed by an approach
clearance to an aircraft with a horrible UHF radio to read it back with
could end up being misconstrued as a vector to final (although the "Report
procedure turn inbound" should eliminate the possibility of a
misunderstanding).

All that aside, I do believe that your example is basically legal (I'd have
to clean up the phraseology a little bit to CYA). I may try it next time I
work one into RKW from the east, assuming I get to him far enough away from
MINES to make a vector workable.

I appreciate the insight,

Chip, ZTL

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:00:48 GMT, "Chip Jones"
wrote:

All that aside, I do believe that your example is basically legal (I'd have
to clean up the phraseology a little bit to CYA). I may try it next time I
work one into RKW from the east, assuming I get to him far enough away from
MINES to make a vector workable.

How about something like:

"Fly heading of 270 until intercepting the HCH 060 radial, then direct
Mines. Maintain 5000 (or your MIA/MVA for the area, if higher) until
MINES; cleared for the approach"?

I would not interpret such a clearance as being a "vector-to-final"




--ron

Chip, there's a website you can check whenever you want that has the
upcoming proposed TERPS procedures on them;
http://avn.faa.gov/acifp.asp

You can click on the state and it will show the procedures for every
city in that state that have been prepared for future publication and
are in the coordination stage.
You can then click on the folder icon and it will show you the procedure
forms, maps of the procedures, graphic depiction, and even the dash-2's
(fix forms).

JPH

Chip Jones wrote:

I'd love to find an Airspace and Procedures guy anywhere in my Region who
had a clue to begin with. Down here in ZTL, we have a total disconnect
between the guys maintaining procedures for the facility, the guys
publishing new procedures up at the Regional level (Terps guys) and the men
and women keying the mic at the sector. For example, GPS approaches are
dropping into my airspace like landmines. We don't get briefed on the
changes anymore. Heck they aren't even "read and initial" items these days,
likely because the 530 guy doesn't even know about them. They even change
things like a missed approach procedure and the only way you can spot it is
by reading the paper IAP plate before issuing the clearance. They plop new
approaches in the airspace and you discover them when the pilot requests the
procedure and you scramble for the plate. We are so short staffed right now
at ZTL, we don't even do crew/team training anymore. I haven't had a Team
Training in three years. Everyone is months behind on CBI's. Our facility
Airspace office doesn't even pretend to try anymore. Yall are probably the
same way out there- it's getting pretty bad all over the Enroute community.

"J Haggerty" wrote in message
newscdXc.60498$wo.55624@okepread06...
Chip, there's a website you can check whenever you want that has the
upcoming proposed TERPS procedures on them;
http://avn.faa.gov/acifp.asp

You can click on the state and it will show the procedures for every
city in that state that have been prepared for future publication and
are in the coordination stage.
You can then click on the folder icon and it will show you the procedure
forms, maps of the procedures, graphic depiction, and even the dash-2's
(fix forms).

HEYYY!!! Thanks!!!

Chip, ZTL

20 questions time: how does someone positively identify which fix is the
intermediate fix?

J Haggerty wrote:

Chip, there's a website you can check whenever you want that has the
upcoming proposed TERPS procedures on them;
http://avn.faa.gov/acifp.asp

You can click on the state and it will show the procedures for every
city in that state that have been prepared for future publication and
are in the coordination stage.
You can then click on the folder icon and it will show you the procedure
forms, maps of the procedures, graphic depiction, and even the dash-2's
(fix forms).

JPH

Chip Jones wrote:

I'd love to find an Airspace and Procedures guy anywhere in my Region who
had a clue to begin with. Down here in ZTL, we have a total disconnect
between the guys maintaining procedures for the facility, the guys
publishing new procedures up at the Regional level (Terps guys) and the men
and women keying the mic at the sector. For example, GPS approaches are
dropping into my airspace like landmines. We don't get briefed on the
changes anymore. Heck they aren't even "read and initial" items these days,
likely because the 530 guy doesn't even know about them. They even change
things like a missed approach procedure and the only way you can spot it is
by reading the paper IAP plate before issuing the clearance. They plop new
approaches in the airspace and you discover them when the pilot requests the
procedure and you scramble for the plate. We are so short staffed right now
at ZTL, we don't even do crew/team training anymore. I haven't had a Team
Training in three years. Everyone is months behind on CBI's. Our facility
Airspace office doesn't even pretend to try anymore. Yall are probably the
same way out there- it's getting pretty bad all over the Enroute community.