Canadian holding procedures

What are the holding procedures in Canada? On the approach plates, they say
something like "Climb to 1900 on track of 297 deg. LEFT turn to 2T NDB."
However, they don't show any holding pattern. Do they expect you to enter a
hold at the beckon? What radial do you use?

What are the holding procedures in Canada? On the approach plates, they say
something like "Climb to 1900 on track of 297 deg. LEFT turn to 2T NDB."
However, they don't show any holding pattern. Do they expect you to enter a
hold at the beckon? What radial do you use?

I'm guessing here, but based on what you've written it sounds like a missed
approach procedure and that the intent is that you'll climb to the altitude on
that heading then once at the altitude fly direct to the fix. My assumption
would be you'd hold on the heading you arrived on, right turns, or you'd get
further instruction from the controller. Another thought is that if the fix is
on the final approach course you'd hold on the approach heading outside the fix
and make the turns on the same side as the procedure turn.

I'm guessing here, ...

Guessing is probably one of the most dangerous things when flying IFR.
What makes you assume that there is a holding pattern if there is
none mentioned in the missed approach instructions? We don't have
holdings at a missed approach in Canada. You just go to your missed
approach fix as described in the missed approach instructions or per
special missed approach clearance received from ATC. As soon as you
are on the missed you talk to ATC who will clear you for another
approach or any other request (for example to go to another airport
which may or may not be your alternate). If you are in uncontrolled
airspace and unable to communicate with ATC you follow IFR procedures
as outlined in the Canadian A.I.P. Under no circumstances would you
start an un-authorized holding pattern.

Gerd Wengler, ATP

I'm guessing here, ...

Guessing is probably one of the most dangerous things when flying IFR.
What makes you assume that there is a holding pattern if there is
none mentioned in the missed approach instructions? We don't have
holdings at a missed approach in Canada. You just go to your missed
approach fix as described in the missed approach instructions or per
special missed approach clearance received from ATC. As soon as you
are on the missed you talk to ATC who will clear you for another
approach or any other request (for example to go to another airport
which may or may not be your alternate). If you are in uncontrolled
airspace and unable to communicate with ATC you follow IFR procedures
as outlined in the Canadian A.I.P. Under no circumstances would you
start an un-authorized holding pattern.

Gerd Wengler, ATP

Thanks for the explanation. You'll notice I wasn't flying IFR when I was
guessing. I never guess when I'm flying IFR - only when I'm muddling around on
the message boards, and I never do anything unauthorized when I'm flying

Thank you for providing a copy of Mr. Wengler's message. His message didn't make it to the news group. Now I understand. They don't have a holding pattern at the missed approach fix.

"Defly" wrote in message ...

I'm guessing here, ...

Guessing is probably one of the most dangerous things when flying IFR.
What makes you assume that there is a holding pattern if there is
none mentioned in the missed approach instructions? We don't have
holdings at a missed approach in Canada. You just go to your missed
approach fix as described in the missed approach instructions or per
special missed approach clearance received from ATC. As soon as you
are on the missed you talk to ATC who will clear you for another
approach or any other request (for example to go to another airport
which may or may not be your alternate). If you are in uncontrolled
airspace and unable to communicate with ATC you follow IFR procedures
as outlined in the Canadian A.I.P. Under no circumstances would you
start an un-authorized holding pattern.

Gerd Wengler, ATP

Thanks for the explanation. You'll notice I wasn't flying IFR when I was
guessing. I never guess when I'm flying IFR - only when I'm muddling around on
the message boards, and I never do anything unauthorized when I'm flying

What makes you assume that there is a holding pattern if there is
none mentioned in the missed approach instructions? We don't have
holdings at a missed approach in Canada. You just go to your missed
approach fix as described in the missed approach instructions or per
special missed approach clearance received from ATC. As soon as you
are on the missed you talk to ATC who will clear you for another
approach or any other request (for example to go to another airport
which may or may not be your alternate). If you are in uncontrolled
airspace and unable to communicate with ATC you follow IFR procedures
as outlined in the Canadian A.I.P. Under no circumstances would you
start an un-authorized holding pattern.


OK, so what *are* all those right-turn holding patterns depicted at
each MAP in the "CAP Instrument Procedures" ? (I am looking
specifically at CAP-2, for example NDB/DME 16 at Nanaimo, but almost
all have it).

Thx,

Martin

OK, so what *are* all those right-turn holding patterns depicted at
each MAP in the "CAP Instrument Procedures" ? (I am looking
specifically at CAP-2, for example NDB/DME 16 at Nanaimo, but almost
all have it).

On this approach (NDB DME 16, Nanaimo, BC), there is no holding
pattern depicted at the MAP – look closely. I don't know what you are
looking at but these holding patterns are rare. They are only found
in mountainous areas and are for shuttling procedures. Some are to
shuttle down for the approach and some are to shuttle up for a safe
altitude.
In this specific case you fly to ARMAC which is the IF. If you're too
high for example coming from the west (minimum safe altitude 7000)
you shuttle down to 2400 as per the holding pattern (thin line). Once
you're there you proceed normally as you would far a procdedure turn
(i.e. race track pattern). Inbound you can then descend to 2000.

Gerd Wengler, ATP

OK, so what *are* all those right-turn holding patterns depicted at
each MAP in the "CAP Instrument Procedures" ? (I am looking
specifically at CAP-2, for example NDB/DME 16 at Nanaimo, but almost
all have it).

On this approach (NDB DME 16, Nanaimo, BC), there is no holding
pattern depicted at the MAP ? look closely.

Sorry, technically, "holding pattern" may be the wrong term. I meant
the racetrack course depicted NE of the NDB, 005 degrees outbound,
whatever that's called.

I don't know what you are looking at but these holding patterns are rare.
They are only found in mountainous areas and are for shuttling procedures.
Some are to shuttle down for the approach and some are to shuttle up for a
safe altitude.

There is one like it on almost every page of this book (CAP-2). Then
again, most of BC *is* mountainous, so maybe that's why...

In this specific case you fly to ARMAC which is the IF. If you're too
high for example coming from the west (minimum safe altitude 7000)
you shuttle down to 2400 as per the holding pattern (thin line). Once
you're there you proceed normally as you would far a procdedure turn
(i.e. race track pattern). Inbound you can then descend to 2000.

I see, the "shuttle" is used to descend or climb from/to the enroute
structure. Makes sense. So an approach clearance automatically implies
authorization to commence the descend "shuttle", as depicted... right
? What about the case when the shuttle is not needed (i.e. you are
already close to the PT outbound segment altitude), are you free to
skip and just proceed outbound ?

Also, on a missed approach, what exactly is the clearance limit if one
does not land (you said there is no such thing as holding there,
unless specified) ? The descriptions always end on something like "...
climbing turn to XY NDB" but, with some exceptions, stop short of the
"...and hold" phraseology that we are so used to on U.S. IAPs. The
mantra here is that if you reach your clearance limit, you enter a
published hold, or a standard holding pattern.

I don't mean this as an argument, just surpised by the statement that
there is no such thing as default holding at the MAP in Canada, and
I'd like to understand this better. The concept of a clearance limit
is an important one in the US airspace system and we are taught to pay
close attention to it, that's why the curiosity :-)

Thanks !

Martin

(gwengler) wrote in message . com...
I'm guessing here, ...

Guessing is probably one of the most dangerous things when flying IFR.

It doesn't appear he was flying IFR, my "guess" is he was in front of
his keyboard writing a post to this newsgroup. I suppose he could have
had MS Flight Sim running in the background.

-Robert, CFI

I think there may be a general misunderstanding in this thread. You
have to distinguish between two different scenarios. 1) Approaches in
controlled or uncontrolled airspace WITH communication to ATC; and 2)
Approaches in uncontrolled airspace WITHOUT communication to ATC.
Both scenarios assume uncontrolled airports, i.e. no tower, radio or
RCO (remote controlled outlet) on the field (in those cases there's
always someone to talk to and get missed approach instructions or
instructions after the missed is commenced).

1) You are at one time on the way to the airport high enough to talk
to ATC. ATC clears you for *AN* approach (this is the correct
phraseology; which approach you do is up to you). YOU ensure terrain
and obstacle clearance from then on using the information on the
approach plate both for the actual approach and for the missed (e.g.
YOU decide if you need a shuttle hold etc.). The missed will get you
back in contact with ATC. Your clearance limit is the last fix in the
missed approach instruction. You WILL be able to talk to ATC by then;
otherwise follow lost comm. procedure. It's the same in the US: At
or before the missed hold you will talk to ATC or go lost comm., only
that there is very rarely a missed hold in Canada (and then only for
terrain in mountainous areas).

2) This may be a concept unknown in the US: In Canada, you can do a
complete IFR flight in IMC or VMC without ever talking to ATC or
without ever getting a clearance, including take off, cruise, approach
and missed. All that's required is that you are in uncontrolled
airspace, squawk 1000 in low airspace, ensure terrain and obstacle
clearance, talk to the required MFs (mandatory frequencies) and
broadcast all your intentions on 126.7. In this case, you do what you
have to do and on the missed, go wherever you can land. Should you
have to enter controlled airspace, contact ATC and get a clearance.
You can NOT enter controlled airspace without a clearance if you are
not VFR.
That's it - no more, no less. On the missed, you either talk to ATC
(or you follow lost comm. procedures) or you are uncontrolled and on
your own.

Gerd