Instrument PIC logging for the experts

The pilot in the left seat has his PPL, no instrument rating, and is
practicing flying under the hood. His buddy is in the right seat, PPL
+ instrument rating.

The left seat pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls, so he
logs PIC. The safety pilot in the right seat was designated as PIC
before the flight, therefore, as acting PIC, he logs PIC.

They fly into IMC. The guy in the left seat is still controlling the
airplane, so he still gets to log PIC. Now, since the flight has gone
into IMC, there's no longer a safety pilot requirement. So the guy in
the right seat no longer gets to log PIC, since his presence is now
superflous.

Who's ACTING PIC now? The guy who's logging PIC in the left seat does
not have an instrument rating so he can't ACT as PIC...but he's the
one at the controls. Does the guy in the guy in right seat retain the
ACTING PIC title, even though he can't log that PIC time?

Alex

the pilot acting as PIC.. in the right seat.. (and we presume not an
instructor based on your scenario).. screwed up big time and allowed the
hooded pilot to fly into IMC conditions without a clearance..

without referencing the regs, I'd say the Instrument rated pilot is now the
PIC by default..

be interesting to see what the experts have to say..

BT

"Koopas Ly" wrote in message
om...
The pilot in the left seat has his PPL, no instrument rating, and is
practicing flying under the hood. His buddy is in the right seat, PPL
+ instrument rating.

The left seat pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls, so he
logs PIC. The safety pilot in the right seat was designated as PIC
before the flight, therefore, as acting PIC, he logs PIC.

They fly into IMC. The guy in the left seat is still controlling the
airplane, so he still gets to log PIC. Now, since the flight has gone
into IMC, there's no longer a safety pilot requirement. So the guy in
the right seat no longer gets to log PIC, since his presence is now
superflous.

Who's ACTING PIC now? The guy who's logging PIC in the left seat does
not have an instrument rating so he can't ACT as PIC...but he's the
one at the controls. Does the guy in the guy in right seat retain the
ACTING PIC title, even though he can't log that PIC time?

Alex

They fly into IMC. I'll assume =with= a clearance, since it was unspecified
that it was without one.

With a clearance, only the instrument rated (right seat) pilot can BE PIC.
When in the clouds, it is still PIC.

However, he can't log PIC time. Again this stems from the confusion between
"being" and "logging", which would not exist if different words were used. The
left seat, non-rated sole manipulator can LOG PIC time. Of course, he can't
log dual.

Outside the clouds, and not on a clearance, the right seat safety pilot can log
PIC because he's acting as PIC of a crew of two. However, if the other pilot
had (prior) agreed to BE PIC, then the safety pilot can log SIC (required
crewmember). I got my first SIC time recently that way.

To clarify I'll change the words. "BEING Pilot in command" is now defined as
"being Top Dog" (TD). Top Dog time is not loggable. It just says who's in
charge. LOGGING PIC time is now defined as "logging HandsOn Time" (HOT).

So, you log HOT when you're flying by yourself.
You log HOT when you're Top Dog of a required crew.
You log HOT when you're hands-on flying, even if somebody else is Top Dog.
An instructor logs HOT when he or she is instructing, no matter who is Top Dog.

Nobody logs Top Dog time. It's just not loggable any more than the time you
spend eating a tuna sandwich is. (ok, they are both loggable, but neither log
entry is useful)

Jose

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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
[...]
Outside the clouds, and not on a clearance, the right seat safety pilot
can log
PIC because he's acting as PIC of a crew of two. However, if the other
pilot
had (prior) agreed to BE PIC, then the safety pilot can log SIC (required
crewmember).

[...]

Note that in the example given previously, the pilot under the hood is not
qualified to act as (be) PIC, and thus could not agree to be PIC. Only if
the pilot under the hood is qualified to act as (be) PIC could the safety
pilot log SIC.

Otherwise, all correct (and that part wasn't incorrect, except in context).
I hope everyone else followed it.

Pete

(Teacherjh) wrote:

So, you log HOT when you're flying by yourself.
You log HOT when you're Top Dog of a required crew.
You log HOT when you're hands-on flying, even if somebody else is Top Dog.
An instructor logs HOT when he or she is instructing, no matter who is Top Dog.

Nobody logs Top Dog time. It's just not loggable any more than the time you
spend eating a tuna sandwich is.

Well. if we want to pick nits (and isn't that what all
"logging" threads are about :-), the pilot in the right seat
can log Top Dog time if the sole manipulator in the right
seat 1) is not PIC (by agreement), 2) can't be PIC (not
instrument rated, no medical, etc.) *and* 3) is not a pilot
(has no pilot certificate of any type).

The exact bounds of this type of legal logging (the sole
manipulator has a balloon rating?) are not currently known,
but it is certain that if the right seat person is under 14,
you can log the time even when you are not touching the
controls. The reason the FAA's Chief Counsel gave for
allowing this type of logging is specifically because the
right seat pilot is "Top Dog," as defined in this thread.
Todd Pattist
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Well. if we want to pick nits (and isn't that what all
"logging" threads are about :-), the pilot in the right seat
can log Top Dog time if the sole manipulator in the right
seat 1) is not PIC (by agreement), 2) can't be PIC (not
instrument rated, no medical, etc.) *and* 3) is not a pilot
(has no pilot certificate of any type).


Nope. TopDog is not loggable. Only HOT is loggable. If you're Top Dog (and
the situation is right) you log HOT, not Top Dog.

That's my point. HOT is what is loggable, TopDog is what you are.

I also think you meant "left" the second time you said "right".

Further, the *and* makes little sense. I think you menat "or". After all, if
the person in question is not a pilot, he can't be PIC anyway. And in any
case, you are mixing up PIC with TopDog and HOT. The point of doing TopDog and
HOT is to get away from the "PIC" word and express the same idea in a less
ambiguous context.

If the left seat person is not a pilot, OR isn't Top Dog, then the right seat
person has to be Top Dog. (that is, assuming there are only two dogs involved
But Top Dog doesn't get logged. Only HOT gets logged. Sometimes the Top
Dog can log HOT.

There can only be one Top Dog. However, in some cases both can log HOT. In
some cases, nobody can log HOT (something I find bizzare, but then again, this
is the FAA). But nobody ever logs Top Dog.

Jose



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Thank you for clearing this up once and for all g!

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Well. if we want to pick nits (and isn't that what all
"logging" threads are about :-), the pilot in the right seat
can log Top Dog time if the sole manipulator in the right
seat 1) is not PIC (by agreement), 2) can't be PIC (not
instrument rated, no medical, etc.) *and* 3) is not a pilot
(has no pilot certificate of any type).


Nope. TopDog is not loggable. Only HOT is loggable. If you're Top Dog
(and
the situation is right) you log HOT, not Top Dog.

That's my point. HOT is what is loggable, TopDog is what you are.

I also think you meant "left" the second time you said "right".

Further, the *and* makes little sense. I think you menat "or". After
all, if
the person in question is not a pilot, he can't be PIC anyway. And in any
case, you are mixing up PIC with TopDog and HOT. The point of doing
TopDog and
HOT is to get away from the "PIC" word and express the same idea in a less
ambiguous context.

If the left seat person is not a pilot, OR isn't Top Dog, then the right
seat
person has to be Top Dog. (that is, assuming there are only two dogs
involved
But Top Dog doesn't get logged. Only HOT gets logged. Sometimes the
Top
Dog can log HOT.

There can only be one Top Dog. However, in some cases both can log HOT.
In
some cases, nobody can log HOT (something I find bizzare, but then again,
this
is the FAA). But nobody ever logs Top Dog.

Jose



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Teacherjh wrote:
Well. if we want to pick nits (and isn't that what all
"logging" threads are about :-), the pilot in the right seat
can log Top Dog time if the sole manipulator in the right
seat 1) is not PIC (by agreement), 2) can't be PIC (not
instrument rated, no medical, etc.) *and* 3) is not a pilot
(has no pilot certificate of any type).


Nope. TopDog is not loggable. Only HOT is loggable. If you're Top Dog (and
the situation is right) you log HOT, not Top Dog.

That's my point. HOT is what is loggable, TopDog is what you are.

I also think you meant "left" the second time you said "right".

Further, the *and* makes little sense. I think you menat "or". After all, if
the person in question is not a pilot, he can't be PIC anyway. And in any
case, you are mixing up PIC with TopDog and HOT. The point of doing TopDog and
HOT is to get away from the "PIC" word and express the same idea in a less
ambiguous context.

If the left seat person is not a pilot, OR isn't Top Dog, then the right seat
person has to be Top Dog. (that is, assuming there are only two dogs involved
But Top Dog doesn't get logged. Only HOT gets logged. Sometimes the Top
Dog can log HOT.

There can only be one Top Dog. However, in some cases both can log HOT. In
some cases, nobody can log HOT (something I find bizzare, but then again, this
is the FAA). But nobody ever logs Top Dog.

Jose

No, he meant what he wrote. Despite what we all think we
understand about the logging regs for acting as PIC, there
is an interpretation from the FAA that seems to say that if
there is only one pilot in the plane, that pilot can log
PIC time even if he or she allows someone else to manipulate
the controls. The interpretation seems to be clearly in
conflict with the wording of the FARs, but it is out there
and was posted here a number of months ago.

--
David Rind

(Teacherjh) wrote:

Nope. TopDog is not loggable. Only HOT is loggable. If you're Top Dog (and
the situation is right) you log HOT, not Top Dog.

OK, I'll buy your definitions and your point, but then
you're logging hands on time when you're not hands on. I
was making the point that there are situations where you log
time because you're top dog

I also think you meant "left" the second time you said "right".

Yep :-)


you are mixing up PIC with TopDog and HOT. The point of doing TopDog and
HOT is to get away from the "PIC" word and express the same idea in a less
ambiguous context.

I took Top Dog to be "acting (or serving) as PIC" and HOT to
be "loggable time for a rating under 61.51." Which are more
commonly used terms. Did I misunderstand you?

If the left seat person is not a pilot, OR isn't Top Dog, then the right seat
person has to be Top Dog. (that is, assuming there are only two dogs involved

Agreed. I can also say "If the left seat person is not a
pilot, AND isn't Top Dog" if I want to, although I agree
that the first implies the second. I was just covering a
lot of situations in one logical expression.

But Top Dog doesn't get logged. Only HOT gets logged. Sometimes the Top
Dog can log HOT.

But my point is that there is only one situation I'm aware
of where you can log time legally solely because you ARE TOP
DOG even though that time does not appear under 61.51 (which
I equated to your "HOT" logging.) That time is where
there's only one pilot, he's acting as PIC (TOP DOG) and
he's not manipulating the controls, but a non-pilot is.
Take a look at 61.51 (e) (which I equated to HOT time) and
try to justify the Chief Counsel's Interpretation that
permits this logging. It isn't HOT time, but the CC says
it's loggable because it's TOP DOG time, thus I say you're
logging TOP DOG time in this one situation, and HOT time in
all the others.

There can only be one Top Dog. However, in some cases both can log HOT. In
some cases, nobody can log HOT (something I find bizzare, but then again, this
is the FAA). But nobody ever logs Top Dog.

Fine, if you want to separate the concepts of
authority/responsibility from the concept of making records,
then you're right. OTOH, if you are separating time that's
loggable under 61.51 from time that's not loggable under
61.51, but is loggable because you're TOP DOG, then my
comment makes sense.

Todd Pattist
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On 24 Nov 2003 19:58:22 -0800, (Koopas Ly) wrote:

Does the guy in the guy in right seat retain the
ACTING PIC title, even though he can't log that PIC time?

Yes

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)