Challenger Crashe at TEB

It looks like the Challenger skidded off the runway and crashed into a
warehouse at TEB. Isn't this the same kind of plane that crashed on
takeoff in Colorado? It looks like the plane remained intact so
hopefully the passengers and crew are OK.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146112,00.html

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201 4443H

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
It looks like the Challenger skidded off the runway and crashed into a
warehouse at TEB. Isn't this the same kind of plane that crashed on
takeoff in Colorado? It looks like the plane remained intact so hopefully
the passengers and crew are OK.


There are no leading edge devices on a Challenger. Bombardier made it cheap
to buy, but that wing is very clean. I'm betting on an emergency AD for
winter operations.

Karl

In rec.aviation.owning kage wrote:

: There are no leading edge devices on a Challenger. Bombardier made it cheap
: to buy, but that wing is very clean. I'm betting on an emergency AD for
: winter operations.

Kind of like the DC-9-10 series, eh? What, 5% of the DC-9-10 fleet crashed
on take off because of wing contamination?
Even more similar to the Fokker F-28 series, a similar size & weight
aircraft (well, compared to a DC-9, anyway). Crashes at Dryden and La Guardia
because of wing contamination. The Fokker report says that one 1mm ice
particle per square centimeter of wing reduces lift coeficient by at least
22%.
--
Aaron C.

Subject: Challenger Crashe at TEB
From: "kage"
Date: 2/2/2005 11:17 Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:


"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
. ..
It looks like the Challenger skidded off the runway and crashed into a
warehouse at TEB. Isn't this the same kind of plane that crashed on
takeoff in Colorado? It looks like the plane remained intact so hopefully
the passengers and crew are OK.


There are no leading edge devices on a Challenger. Bombardier made it cheap
to buy, but that wing is very clean. I'm betting on an emergency AD for
winter operations.

Karl

Why would you think that?

"kage" wrote in message I'm betting on an emergency AD for
winter operations.

There was no visible moisture. The sky was crystal clear. The only wing
contamination possible would have been light frost on the bottom of the wing
where the fuel had cold-soaked after landing- if the plane had made a
quick-turn. No other aircraft had requested de-icing. I doubt that the cause
was wing ice.

D.

"Capt.Doug" wrote:

There was no visible moisture. The sky was crystal clear. The only wing
contamination possible would have been light frost on the bottom of the wing
where the fuel had cold-soaked after landing- if the plane had made a
quick-turn.

Interesting that I have read the "there was no visible moisture" point a
few times in relation to this crash. Based on my experience, no visible
moisture is no guarantee.

I only have about 750 hours of flying in the Northeast US, but during this
short time I have experienced three different situations where frost
appeared over top of the entire aircraft (twice in a C172 and once in a
Bonanza) within 10 minutes of landing in weather that was crystal clear, no
visible moisture.

This happened twice at Niagara Falls and once in Plattsburgh, NY. In all
cases, the sun had either just set or had been down a few hours and outside
temperatures were well below freezing (10 degrees F or so).

--
Peter







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"Capt.Doug"
There was no visible moisture. The sky was crystal clear. The only wing
contamination possible would have been light frost on the bottom of the
wing
where the fuel had cold-soaked after landing- if the plane had made a
quick-turn. No other aircraft had requested de-icing. I doubt that the
cause
was wing ice.

Frost on top of the wings, and more importantly - on top of the T-tail is
highly likely. I have flown a T tail jet for 25 years and you can get frost
on top of the wings and tail very easily in the early morning with the right
conditions.

To Peter R. and Gary Mishler. Say for sake of argument that the pilots
missed a thin layer of frost. If discovered, are there any remedies short
of a full, formal deicing?

Joe Johnson wrote:

To Peter R. and Gary Mishler. Say for sake of argument that the pilots
missed a thin layer of frost. If discovered, are there any remedies short
of a full, formal deicing?

I am not qualified to answer as I have no experience in anything greater
than a single engine piston aircraft.

That said, when my aircraft was frosted over in those three incidents, my
only fly-able option was to request a complete aircraft deicing.

Fortunately, in all three cases the line crew was available, had the deice
fluid nearby, and did it for free. I tipped them generously.

If deicing were not an option, I would have had to get a hotel and wait
until the frost melted off the next day, or some liquid deicing were
available. In no case would I have attempted to take off with it on the
wing surface.

--
Peter







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"Joe Johnson" wrote in message
. com...
To Peter R. and Gary Mishler. Say for sake of argument that the pilots
missed a thin layer of frost. If discovered, are there any remedies short
of a full, formal deicing?

They used to say you could "polish" the frost smooth with a rag or gloved
hand, although I have not heard of that in a long time and I would never do
it on a supercritical wing shape. *Maybe* a light single engine, but never
a business jet.

But even so, that still leaves the question of the top of the T tail.

Best answer is a quick spray down with the deice truck - wouldn't take much
to get rid of a morning frost.