ASW-20 spins

Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and was wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery technique.

"The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin. "

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:25:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and was wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery technique.

"The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin.

Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:25:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and was wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery technique.

"The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin. "

Who exactly was able to determine whether the stick was pushed forward or back Certainly not the pilot, as he or she was allegedly "killed".

'inverted' seems to be the key word.

At 11:41 02 June 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:25:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while
turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and
was
wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery
technique.

"The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a
steep
banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick
forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover
which simply held them in the spin.

Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

If I am in a spin, I will do as taught and practiced, opposite rudder, stick forward, that is the proper spin recovery. Would you care to share your complete thought?

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:

Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 8:45:05 AM UTC-4, Greg O'Hagan wrote:
'inverted' seems to be the key word.

Not correct technique for that, either. Next.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

In no glider I am familiar with, do spin recovery instructions include holding the stick "full forward". That's the potentially fatal error (not convinced this is a discussion based on things that really happened, but....)

In most modern gliders the drill is some version of 1) opposite rudder (& select neutral or negative flap setting in some types) until rotation ceases, 2) completely relax all back pressure on stick, possibly adding a little forward movement to break the stall, 3) recover from the resulting dive. Unless a home built, there's a POH. It's usually a good place to start!

FWIW, my 20B is delightfully well behaved with modern winglets. A little less so with factory tips if the CG is near aft limit. The POH recommended procedures work just fine.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 9:59:03 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
If I am in a spin, I will do as taught and practiced, opposite rudder, stick forward, that is the proper spin recovery. Would you care to share your complete thought?

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:

Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Not a glider but, as the T-33a transitioned from a tail slide to an end
over end tumble, I applied the Dash One out of control procedu

Throttle - Idle
Ailerons and Rudder - Neutral
Stick - Full Aft

The aircraft shook and shuddered and transitioned into an inverted
spin. The flight manual made no distinction between upright and
inverted spins so I continued the above procedure into the spin recovery
procedu

Rudder - Opposite spin direction (look at the slip ball, not the trees,
and keep the rudder against the spin)

The aircraft transitioned into an erect spin (this I could handle!)

Stick - Forward and neutralize rudder when the spin stops and recover
from the dive. Watch out for that nasty secondary stall, the trees are
getting closer!

It's all about applying the correct controls for the situation and
feeling the aircraft. Each aircraft has its quirks. If you're
adventurous you should learn yours unless your flight manual prohibits
such maneuvers. My LS-6 would roll over the top in a final turn stall,
my LAK-17a is much more benign.

On 6/2/2015 8:16 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
In no glider I am familiar with, do spin recovery instructions include holding the stick "full forward". That's the potentially fatal error (not convinced this is a discussion based on things that really happened, but....)

In most modern gliders the drill is some version of 1) opposite rudder (& select neutral or negative flap setting in some types) until rotation ceases, 2) completely relax all back pressure on stick, possibly adding a little forward movement to break the stall, 3) recover from the resulting dive. Unless a home built, there's a POH. It's usually a good place to start!

FWIW, my 20B is delightfully well behaved with modern winglets. A little less so with factory tips if the CG is near aft limit. The POH recommended procedures work just fine.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 9:59:03 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
If I am in a spin, I will do as taught and practiced, opposite rudder, stick forward, that is the proper spin recovery. Would you care to share your complete thought?

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Dan Marotta

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:25:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and was wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery technique.

"The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin. "

I have never heard of the behavior you describe.
When the '20 was new, a lot of pilots still subscribed to the idea that it was good to fly at the aft CG limit to maximize performance. This seems to have led to a number of unexplained spin accidents when landing. I never heard of an unrecoverable spin, nor going inverted as part of the spin. Someone may well have over done the forward stick and gone negative in the recovery.
My first '20 had some undocumented tail ballast that made it very ugly when I first flew it. I was quite proficient in spins so no bad came of it.
Interestingly the addition of external seals that came along later made the spin characteristics a bit more benign. Obviously some internal flow was going on in the trailing edge area.
'20 recovery is normal. Opposite rudder, neutralize stick, flaps neutral. When winglets are added, it is a bit more resistant to spinning, but slightly more abrupt when it departs, likely due to blanking of the tip by the inboard stalled winglet.
FWIW
UH

On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 08:38:32 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

Not a glider but, as the T-33a transitioned from a tail slide to an end
over end tumble, I applied the Dash One out of control procedu

Throttle - Idle Ailerons and Rudder - Neutral Stick - Full Aft

The aircraft shook and shuddered and transitioned into an inverted spin.
The flight manual made no distinction between upright and inverted
spins so I continued the above procedure into the spin recovery
procedu

Rudder - Opposite spin direction (look at the slip ball, not the trees,
and keep the rudder against the spin)

The aircraft transitioned into an erect spin (this I could handle!)

Stick - Forward and neutralize rudder when the spin stops and recover
from the dive. Watch out for that nasty secondary stall, the trees are
getting closer!

It's all about applying the correct controls for the situation and
feeling the aircraft. Each aircraft has its quirks. If you're
adventurous you should learn yours unless your flight manual prohibits
such maneuvers. My LS-6 would roll over the top in a final turn stall,
my LAK-17a is much more benign.


Its interesting that nobody has mentioned what it said in the handbook
for my ASW-20A: First action is to push flaps fully negative, then take
normal spin recovery action (stick central, full opposite rudder), adding
that the spin will very often stop when the flaps go negative.

That is exactly what mine did. I haven't forgotten that instruction,
though its 11 years since I last flew an ASW-20. I suspect a good reason
for this instruction is that pushing the flaps has two immediate
benefits:

(1) it will help unstall the wing, which is why that, by itself
can be enough to recover from the spin.

(2) it sets VNE as high as possible, which never hurts where a
steep dive is involved.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |