Replacing aging club Grobs...best options?

Hello all! I am trying to gather information on replacement options for my club's aging Grobs. So far I have reached out to SZD for the SZD-54-2 (probably not a factor with no US certification or dealer), the HpH Twin Shark, Shempp-Hirth Duo Discus XL, Schleicher for the ASK-21B and DG for the DG1001 Club Neo.

The club prime purpose for this new glider(s) would be a combination of basic flight training, advanced training (beyond Private) and club member dual cross-country flying. A 40:1 or better best L/D would be preferred, for cross-country training. While many of the options listed are at the upper end of the price range, I need to add more in the lower/middle range.

Any recommendations on other options I have not considered? How are other clubs approaching this common problem? Thanks,

Mark

On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 12:56:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello all! I am trying to gather information on replacement options for my club's aging Grobs. So far I have reached out to SZD for the SZD-54-2 (probably not a factor with no US certification or dealer), the HpH Twin Shark, Shempp-Hirth Duo Discus XL, Schleicher for the ASK-21B and DG for the DG1001 Club Neo.

The club prime purpose for this new glider(s) would be a combination of basic flight training, advanced training (beyond Private) and club member dual cross-country flying. A 40:1 or better best L/D would be preferred, for cross-country training. While many of the options listed are at the upper end of the price range, I need to add more in the lower/middle range.

Any recommendations on other options I have not considered? How are other clubs approaching this common problem? Thanks,

Mark
Where are you located...assuming USofA.
ASK-21 has support and I like it. It has longer legs than a 2-33.

On Monday, 24 May 2021 at 18:23:28 UTC+1, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 12:56:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello all! I am trying to gather information on replacement options for my club's aging Grobs. So far I have reached out to SZD for the SZD-54-2 (probably not a factor with no US certification or dealer), the HpH Twin Shark, Shempp-Hirth Duo Discus XL, Schleicher for the ASK-21B and DG for the DG1001 Club Neo.

The club prime purpose for this new glider(s) would be a combination of basic flight training, advanced training (beyond Private) and club member dual cross-country flying. A 40:1 or better best L/D would be preferred, for cross-country training. While many of the options listed are at the upper end of the price range, I need to add more in the lower/middle range.

Any recommendations on other options I have not considered? How are other clubs approaching this common problem? Thanks,

Mark
Where are you located...assuming USofA.
ASK-21 has support and I like it. It has longer legs than a 2-33.

You can't buy a better glider for training than K21b
As a former Duo owner they are beautiful gliders, but not a primary trainer, you would not want to send some one on their first Solo in one.
The K21 is easy to fly and safe for clumsy pilots, but it now has the "B" option which allows the C of G to be moved back for spin training.
In my experience K21 are very tough, and can always be sold on because some one wants one.

We did the same evaluation a few years ago, comparing the DG1001 club neo, ASK21B and Perkosz. We ended up buying a new winch instead of a new glider, though.

The costs for all three were basically the same. DG gave us their factory ship with fixed gear for an evaluation weekend and the club members were very pleased with it. The wings were quite light for such a ship and it was easy to rig. But the rudder pedals for the backseat were not adjustable. Flight performance was comparable to an LS4 and it was very silent in the glider during flight. It was not possible to get a Perkosz for testing purpuse. It has been out of production for a while since they changed the factory producing the glider. But it should become available soon.

Our conclusion was, that if you consider a ship for anything else than basic training, the ASK21 is out of the game. The Perkosz and DG1001 club neo have significantly better performance, good flight characteristics and are suitable for spin training.

If basic training is the most important thing for you, the ASK21 might be the better choice, because it is probably the toughest twoseater available. It can take a lot of punishment.

Christoph

On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:31:14 PM UTC+10, Christoph Barniske wrote:
We did the same evaluation a few years ago, comparing the DG1001 club neo, ASK21B and Perkosz. We ended up buying a new winch instead of a new glider, though.

The costs for all three were basically the same. DG gave us their factory ship with fixed gear for an evaluation weekend and the club members were very pleased with it. The wings were quite light for such a ship and it was easy to rig. But the rudder pedals for the backseat were not adjustable. Flight performance was comparable to an LS4 and it was very silent in the glider during flight. It was not possible to get a Perkosz for testing purpuse.. It has been out of production for a while since they changed the factory producing the glider. But it should become available soon.

Our conclusion was, that if you consider a ship for anything else than basic training, the ASK21 is out of the game. The Perkosz and DG1001 club neo have significantly better performance, good flight characteristics and are suitable for spin training.

If basic training is the most important thing for you, the ASK21 might be the better choice, because it is probably the toughest twoseater available.. It can take a lot of punishment.

Christoph

The ASK21b is probably the best training-only glider ever made - the DG1001 is a great compromise between training and early XC, but slightly too slippery to be a perfect trainer. Never flown a Perkoz.

On Mon, 24 May 2021 23:31:12 -0700, Christoph Barniske wrote:

Our conclusion was, that if you consider a ship for anything else than
basic training, the ASK21 is out of the game. The Perkosz and DG1001
club neo have significantly better performance, good flight
characteristics and are suitable for spin training.

Don't believe anybody who says the ASK-21 can't be spun without tail
weights: my pre-solo spin training was done in an ASK-21. Flown off the
winch, thermalled up to safe height and went spinning. It doesn't spin
easily unless the instructor know the magic, absolute minimum energy at
initiation, formula, but it can be spun and recovery is normal. It may or
may not be relevant, but neither that instructor or myself were above
average weight: I normally fly the '21 solo with a parachute, the seat
back in the rear notch and no weights.

I've never flown a 21b so have no idea whether it can also be spun
without tail weight.


If basic training is the most important thing for you, the ASK21 might
be the better choice, because it is probably the toughest twoseater
available. It can take a lot of punishment.

Agreed.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On 5/25/2021 2:31 AM, Christoph Barniske wrote:
...

Our conclusion was, that if you consider a ship for anything else than basic training, the ASK21 is out of the game. ...

The ASK-21 (and other gliders of similar performance) can be flown XC
quite well. And perhaps learning to do that is better training than
jumping right into a glider that has higher performance than the first
single seater the student is likely to buy?

See what UH has done in XC mentoring in his ASK21.

I am writing this as somebody who flys XC in a "Russia" AC4 in the NE
US. Similar (or slightly lower) performance to the ASK-21.

My club is really lucky to have a 103 with good useful load, and I am getting to really like it as a trainer.

Hint: Toss the lead batteries and replace with a single LiFePO4.

We've been having hull value discussions and I'm thinking next year we should make that enough to get a used ASK-21.

Having de/rigged Perkoz, 21 and 103, they all require considerable manpower..

The DG-1000 is a bit better because of segmented wing and you actually can derig with three. Unfortunately the Club fixed gear version has been rumored not to be amenable to held off landings. The retract versions have a considerably lower gear.

At one club the electric gear was chosen. On one early season flight the instructor was unfamiliar with the emergency gear down system and landed gear up. My suggestion that spring checkouts should include using the emergency gear down fell on deaf ears. With the manual gear, you can get gear collapses. Pick your poison.

One of the nice things about the Grob is that there's no rear spar pins that can disappear.

There are basically two gear versions available for the DG1001: 2 wheel and 3 wheel gear. The 2 wheel version is retractable and puts the fuselage in quite a high position over the ground. There is no front wheel. It had a reputation to retract without pilot interaction in the first serial numbers. This is the version being available as an electric gear.

The 3 wheel version is available as fixed and manually retractable variants which can be changed between each other. It is basically the same gear like the DG505. It's quite robust and usually the one that the DG1001 club neo is shipped with. For training purposes, the 3 wheel version is probably the better choice.

On 26/05/2021 05:30, George Haeh wrote:

The DG-1000 is a bit better because of segmented wing and you actually can derig with three. Unfortunately the Club fixed gear version has been rumored not to be amenable to held off landings. The retract versions have a considerably lower gear.


The Club fixed gear is lower, as has been said like the DG-505.

My club has a DG-505 and that can need accurate flying for held off
landings.

We did have a 1001 Club on site for a weekend and pilots who were
familiar with the 505 all noted that the approach control on the 1001
Club was uneventful compared to the 505. In fact it was very noticable
that when all levels of club pilot including pre-solo flew it we did not
have a single heavy arrival and most commented how easy it was to do a
nice smooth held off landing.


--

Nick Hill