Newby questions about the GLASFLUGEL H 201 STANDARD LIBELLE

New to gliding (won't say "soaring" since I haven't been accused of doing much of that) and was interested in buying a forgiving starter glider. I've flown the 1-26 extensively but would like a bit more performance--feel like I'm stuck at the field.
I've seen the 201 on Wings and Wheels. I've read a couple of online items on the Libelle and they seem to be fairly glowing--not bad anyway. However, they are all, naturally, pretty old and with them being early glass birds I was wondering if I should be concerned about that--maintaining condition, repairs, upkeep etc. Also, the airbrakes from what I can tell aren't great at spoiling lift--I'd like some views on that. I looked on the NTSB database for Libelle accidents and quite a few of the accidents were regarding landing out and not being able to lose altitude quickly enough--though I understand it slips well, or not having much braking once on the deck.
I also read that although it is supposed to be easy (a gem) to assemble/disassemble, there might be an historical issue with a pin that could have dire consequences.
Finally, although just about every thing I've read is encouraging, there are quite a few for sale on W&W. I was wondering about that too--but there's a few 1-26s as well, so...

RS JD

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:45:40 AM UTC+2, LoftusRoadLad wrote:
New to gliding (won't say "soaring" since I haven't been accused of doing much of that) and was interested in buying a forgiving starter glider. I've flown the 1-26 extensively but would like a bit more performance--feel like I'm stuck at the field.
I've seen the 201 on Wings and Wheels. I've read a couple of online items on the Libelle and they seem to be fairly glowing--not bad anyway. However, they are all, naturally, pretty old and with them being early glass birds I was wondering if I should be concerned about that--maintaining condition, repairs, upkeep etc. Also, the airbrakes from what I can tell aren't great at spoiling lift--I'd like some views on that. I looked on the NTSB database for Libelle accidents and quite a few of the accidents were regarding landing out and not being able to lose altitude quickly enough--though I understand it slips well, or not having much braking once on the deck.
I also read that although it is supposed to be easy (a gem) to assemble/disassemble, there might be an historical issue with a pin that could have dire consequences.
Finally, although just about every thing I've read is encouraging, there are quite a few for sale on W&W. I was wondering about that too--but there's a few 1-26s as well, so...

RS JD

Great ship and flies really nice. Airbrakes are ok if you watch your speed and don't extend the fully. No reason not to buy. Rigging is a simple job and can be done alone with a one man rig assist if you like.
Just buy a Libelle and try it.

Ronald

On Fri, 28 May 2021 01:45:38 -0700, LoftusRoadLad wrote:

I've seen the 201 on Wings and Wheels. I've read a couple of online
items on the Libelle and they seem to be fairly glowing--not bad anyway.
However, they are all, naturally, pretty old and with them being early
glass birds I was wondering if I should be concerned about
that--maintaining condition, repairs, upkeep etc. Also, the airbrakes
from what I can tell aren't great at spoiling lift--I'd like some views
on that. I looked on the NTSB database for Libelle accidents and quite a
few of the accidents were regarding landing out and not being able to
lose altitude quickly enough--though I understand it slips well, or not
having much braking once on the deck.

Bear in mind when reading what follows that I had just under 270 hours
when I first flew a Libelle 201 from an aero tow - and had a nice 24
minute flight in fairly liftless conditions and no issues with flying it.
I was looking for a glider after flying club single seaters from 17 hours
(when I converted from ASK-21 to SZD Junior) and then to a Pegase 90 at
82 hours: so I'd been flying club single seaters (Pegase and Discus)
cross country for around 180 hours before first climbing into a Libelle.

I also read that although it is supposed to be easy (a gem) to
assemble/disassemble, there might be an historical issue with a pin that
could have dire consequences.

That's true - nobody runs away if you ask for help rigging or de-rigging
a Libelle. It helps a lot that the spar stubs are fully visible during
this process. Elevator is self-connecting and stab is locked in place
with a single screw. There's a single, central pin that holds the wings
together and airgrakes are self-connection. The only real gotcha is that
the aileron connectors are just inside the fuselage and you *MUST* feel
under them as you drop the spring-loaded center pin through the ball
bearing on the end of the aileron push-rod. If you can't feel the end of
the pin projecting 1/4" or so through the underside of the bearing you've
done it wrong, so pull the pin up against the spring and do it again.
Repeat as needed until the pin is correctly fitted and sticking out of
the underside of the bearing.

Finally, although just about every thing I've read is encouraging, there
are quite a few for sale on W&W. I was wondering about that too--but
there's a few 1-26s as well, so...

I've had mine for 15 years, it had passed its 3000 hour inspection before
I bought it. The only major issues have been that:

- I damaged one of the aileron drives. They're fragile - NEVER, EVER
apply any force at all to the stick if you've got aileron locks or the
wing dolly fitted. For this reason its also better to have the wings off
or the ailerons disconnected before taking the panel out or putting it
back - this need the stick to be hard over on one side or the other to
slide the panel past it.

- I'm currently having one of the airbrakes bearings replaced because of
corrosion due to water leaks through an old (now replaced) set of covers.

The type certificate holder is Glasfaser in Germany - they're a pleasure
to deal with and very helpful if you need spares and/or drawings.

I think everything else I can tell you is he
https://www.gregorie.org/gliding/lib...201_notes.html



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 4:45:40 AM UTC-4, LoftusRoadLad wrote:
New to gliding (won't say "soaring" since I haven't been accused of doing much of that) and was interested in buying a forgiving starter glider. I've flown the 1-26 extensively but would like a bit more performance--feel like I'm stuck at the field.
I've seen the 201 on Wings and Wheels. I've read a couple of online items on the Libelle and they seem to be fairly glowing--not bad anyway. However, they are all, naturally, pretty old and with them being early glass birds I was wondering if I should be concerned about that--maintaining condition, repairs, upkeep etc. Also, the airbrakes from what I can tell aren't great at spoiling lift--I'd like some views on that. I looked on the NTSB database for Libelle accidents and quite a few of the accidents were regarding landing out and not being able to lose altitude quickly enough--though I understand it slips well, or not having much braking once on the deck.
I also read that although it is supposed to be easy (a gem) to assemble/disassemble, there might be an historical issue with a pin that could have dire consequences.
Finally, although just about every thing I've read is encouraging, there are quite a few for sale on W&W. I was wondering about that too--but there's a few 1-26s as well, so...

RS JD
These are a nice older glider to own. The finish holds up remarkably well for their age.
Light and easy to rig.
Not as rugged as more modern gliders.
Well supported by Streifeneder.
Forgiving and fairly easy to fly once you learn how to use the rudder.
Learn good energy management and pick big fields.
Good luck
UH

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 8:28:16 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 4:45:40 AM UTC-4, LoftusRoadLad wrote:
New to gliding (won't say "soaring" since I haven't been accused of doing much of that) and was interested in buying a forgiving starter glider. I've flown the 1-26 extensively but would like a bit more performance--feel like I'm stuck at the field.

Coming from a 1-26, it will be easy to build up speed in a Libelle. In your current flying, concentrate on exact airspeed control in circuit flying until you get the Libelle. The dive brakes aren't powerful enough to get rid of any excess energy, but are adequate for a well-flown circuit. If you can get dual in a high performance two-seat glass glider, it would be time well spent - it amazing how quickly the knots build up. The Libelle is the prettiest glider I've seen, and it is a regret that I have never had the chance to fly one.

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 8:21:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 8:28:16 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 4:45:40 AM UTC-4, LoftusRoadLad wrote:
New to gliding (won't say "soaring" since I haven't been accused of doing much of that) and was interested in buying a forgiving starter glider. I've flown the 1-26 extensively but would like a bit more performance--feel like I'm stuck at the field.
Coming from a 1-26, it will be easy to build up speed in a Libelle. In your current flying, concentrate on exact airspeed control in circuit flying until you get the Libelle. The dive brakes aren't powerful enough to get rid of any excess energy, but are adequate for a well-flown circuit. If you can get dual in a high performance two-seat glass glider, it would be time well spent - it amazing how quickly the knots build up. The Libelle is the prettiest glider I've seen, and it is a regret that I have never had the chance to fly one.
There is a TN to increase the spoiler travel that I am sniffing at - but really, they're fine. It will seem like a big change from a 1-26 with a skid because it is a big change!

On 5/28/2021 5:28 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 4:45:40 AM UTC-4, LoftusRoadLad wrote:
New to gliding (won't say "soaring" since I haven't been accused of doing much of that) and was interested in buying a forgiving starter glider. I've flown the 1-26 extensively but would like a bit more performance--feel like I'm stuck at the field.
I've seen the 201 on Wings and Wheels. I've read a couple of online items on the Libelle and they seem to be fairly glowing--not bad anyway. However, they are all, naturally, pretty old and with them being early glass birds I was wondering if I should be concerned about that--maintaining condition, repairs, upkeep etc. Also, the airbrakes from what I can tell aren't great at spoiling lift--I'd like some views on that. I looked on the NTSB database for Libelle accidents and quite a few of the accidents were regarding landing out and not being able to lose altitude quickly enough--though I understand it slips well, or not having much braking once on the deck.
I also read that although it is supposed to be easy (a gem) to assemble/disassemble, there might be an historical issue with a pin that could have dire consequences.
Finally, although just about every thing I've read is encouraging, there are quite a few for sale on W&W. I was wondering about that too--but there's a few 1-26s as well, so...

RS JD
These are a nice older glider to own. The finish holds up remarkably well for their age.
Light and easy to rig.
Not as rugged as more modern gliders.
Well supported by Streifeneder.
Forgiving and fairly easy to fly once you learn how to use the rudder.
Learn good energy management and pick big fields.
Good luck
UH

I agree with Hank, but it does have a drawback that most older gliders have: poor crash
safety, compared to gliders like the ASW24 and later, which have far more protective
fuselages. This negative feature needs to be balanced against it's positive features by
the pilot.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Saturday, May 29, 2021 at 11:32:47 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 5/28/2021 5:28 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 4:45:40 AM UTC-4, LoftusRoadLad wrote:
New to gliding (won't say "soaring" since I haven't been accused of doing much of that) and was interested in buying a forgiving starter glider. I've flown the 1-26 extensively but would like a bit more performance--feel like I'm stuck at the field.
I've seen the 201 on Wings and Wheels. I've read a couple of online items on the Libelle and they seem to be fairly glowing--not bad anyway. However, they are all, naturally, pretty old and with them being early glass birds I was wondering if I should be concerned about that--maintaining condition, repairs, upkeep etc. Also, the airbrakes from what I can tell aren't great at spoiling lift--I'd like some views on that. I looked on the NTSB database for Libelle accidents and quite a few of the accidents were regarding landing out and not being able to lose altitude quickly enough--though I understand it slips well, or not having much braking once on the deck.
I also read that although it is supposed to be easy (a gem) to assemble/disassemble, there might be an historical issue with a pin that could have dire consequences.
Finally, although just about every thing I've read is encouraging, there are quite a few for sale on W&W. I was wondering about that too--but there's a few 1-26s as well, so...

RS JD
These are a nice older glider to own. The finish holds up remarkably well for their age.
Light and easy to rig.
Not as rugged as more modern gliders.
Well supported by Streifeneder.
Forgiving and fairly easy to fly once you learn how to use the rudder.
Learn good energy management and pick big fields.
Good luck
UH
I agree with Hank, but it does have a drawback that most older gliders have: poor crash
safety, compared to gliders like the ASW24 and later, which have far more protective
fuselages. This negative feature needs to be balanced against it's positive features by
the pilot.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
My thanks to everyone (finally figured out how to "reply to the group") for their input. Really solid info. I've talked to a couple of experienced pilots in the club I belong to and they have all said your input was spot on. Hadn't really considered the "crashworthyness" to be honest. It's a great point but I don't think it will prevent me getting a Libelle. Again, thanks to all.

RS JD

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 3:45:40 AM UTC-5, LoftusRoadLad wrote:
New to gliding (won't say "soaring" since I haven't been accused of doing much of that) and was interested in buying a forgiving starter glider. I've flown the 1-26 extensively but would like a bit more performance--feel like I'm stuck at the field.
I've seen the 201 on Wings and Wheels. I've read a couple of online items on the Libelle and they seem to be fairly glowing--not bad anyway. However, they are all, naturally, pretty old and with them being early glass birds I was wondering if I should be concerned about that--maintaining condition, repairs, upkeep etc. Also, the airbrakes from what I can tell aren't great at spoiling lift--I'd like some views on that. I looked on the NTSB database for Libelle accidents and quite a few of the accidents were regarding landing out and not being able to lose altitude quickly enough--though I understand it slips well, or not having much braking once on the deck.
I also read that although it is supposed to be easy (a gem) to assemble/disassemble, there might be an historical issue with a pin that could have dire consequences.
Finally, although just about every thing I've read is encouraging, there are quite a few for sale on W&W. I was wondering about that too--but there's a few 1-26s as well, so...

RS JD
I've heard lots of folks talk about the Libelle's weak spoilers. But, my experience was transitioning form a 1-26 to my Libelle and I would say the Libelle spoilers are more effective than the 1-26. YMMV or course. I'm sure other glass ships have more effective spoilers but if you're used to the 1-26 you'll be pleasantly surprised. I found the Libelle to be quite a bit more sensitive to correct rudder inputs so your ability to fly clean and straight will improve with time in the Libelle. I've found no vices at all with mine and I highly recommend it as a first glass ship.

I would say the biggest thing for you to determine is, can you physically fit in one? The cockpit is SNUG with zero extra room - particularly across the shoulders. I would strongly recommend finding one to actually sit in before making a purchase.

I've gotten superb support from Streifeneder when I need to ask a question or purchase a part - great folks to deal with. The bang for the buck with a Libelle is really quite good. Get one and fly the heck out of it!

Robert

I think the story about the Libelle airbrakes is partly because the "open class" Libelle H-301 (an older model than the standard Libelle H-201, the higher number notwithstanding) had the airbrakes very far backwards on the wing to keep the laminarity of the airflow undisturbed. They were indeed rather ineffective. Those on the Standard Libelle are quite decent, if not overly powerful.

When Hänle was developing the Standard Libelle, the IGC rules for the standard class still specified terminal velocity airbrakes (speed lower than Vne in a vertical dive), and even if the Libelle airbrakes were not really that good, they still limited the velocity below Vne at a 45° dive. That was a point of contention, because the IGC accepted this without formally changing the rules. American manufacturers like the Schweizer brothers felt cheated because they had indeed developed - at great cost - terminal velocity airbrakes conforming to the rules for their standard gliders.