Unclear Clearance

OK, just to distract you guys from "IFR with a VFR GPS" ---

Flying into Grand Marais MN last week (KCKC) I was out maybe
30 miles at 7000 and got "Cleared for the approach, maintain
4000 until established. Contact advisory ... "

The reason for the early clearance was, I think, that I was
at the edge of Center's radar and comm coverage. (Grand
Marais is near the Canadian border on the north shore of
Lake Superior. There was nobody around.)

But I really didn't want to fly that last 30 miles at 4000
as there were clouds about there and maybe a little ice. I
wanted to stay at 7. So I queried: "Center, that 4000 was
pilot's discretion, right?" and got a "Right."

Did I need to ask? Should I have assumed pilot's
discretion? She did not tell me to descend, just gave me
the altitude limit.

Mitty wrote:

snip
Did I need to ask?

If you are unclear, then you were right to ask. However, if your example
were complete, then you were allowed to descend.

Should I have assumed pilot's
discretion? She did not tell me to descend, just gave me
the altitude limit.

Assuming there was no other restriction ("upon reaching {IAF}" or "maintain
four thousand until established"), then you are cleared to descend as per
the approach plate when the controller states "cleared for the approach."


--
Peter
























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"Mitty" wrote in message
...

Flying into Grand Marais MN last week (KCKC) I was out maybe 30 miles at
7000 and got "Cleared for the approach, maintain 4000 until established.
Contact advisory ... "

The reason for the early clearance was, I think, that I was at the edge of
Center's radar and comm coverage. (Grand Marais is near the Canadian
border on the north shore of Lake Superior. There was nobody around.)


I suspect it was solely due to communications. What was your assigned
route?

On 11/15/2005 5:37 PM, Steven P. McNicoll wrote the following:
"Mitty" wrote in message
...

Flying into Grand Marais MN last week (KCKC) I was out maybe 30 miles at
7000 and got "Cleared for the approach, maintain 4000 until established.
Contact advisory ... "

The reason for the early clearance was, I think, that I was at the edge of
Center's radar and comm coverage. (Grand Marais is near the Canadian
border on the north shore of Lake Superior. There was nobody around.)



I suspect it was solely due to communications. What was your assigned
route?

Direct KCKC. And she was going to lose me, probably at
5000. Both comm and radar. But it was the altitude
assignment that was the question.

In article , Mitty
wrote:

OK, just to distract you guys from "IFR with a VFR GPS" ---

Flying into Grand Marais MN last week (KCKC) I was out maybe
30 miles at 7000 and got "Cleared for the approach, maintain
4000 until established. Contact advisory ... "

As worded, you were required to vacate 7000. No need to rush down, but you
can't just hang out at 7000 for another 30 miles either.

"Center, that 4000 was pilot's discretion, right?" and got a "Right."

Did I need to ask?

Yup, you did. You did the right thing by asking.

Should I have assumed pilot's discretion? She did not tell me to
descend, just gave me the altitude limit.

If you're at 7000 and you're told you maintain 4000, descending is pretty
much the only way to comply. She didn't give you an "altitude limit", she
have you an "altitude". If she had said, "maintain at or above 4000 until
established", then you could have stayed at 7000 as long as you wanted.
Same with "descend at pilot's discretion and maintain 4000". Or, "Cruise
7000".

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:32:42 -0600, Mitty wrote:

Did I need to ask?

Yes.

Should I have assumed pilot's discretion?

No.

She did not tell me to descend, just gave me
the altitude limit.

ATC gave you a new altitude to "maintain" until established. That is your
altitude assignment. In my part of the world, it is usually preceded by a
"climb" or "descend" but I don't know if that is required.

Since you were uncertain, and since the terminology seems somewhat
ambiguous, clearing it up with ATC seems prudent.

She could have said "maintain at *or above* 4000' until established", in
which case it would have been pilot's discretion as to when to descend to
4000' prior to becoming established, but she did not.

======================================
AIM 5-5-4 a.
3. Upon receipt of an approach clearance while on an unpublished
route or being radar vectored:
(a) ...
(b) Maintains the last assigned altitude until established on a
segment of a published route or IAP, at which time published altitudes
apply.
---------------------

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
ATC gave you a new altitude to "maintain" until established. That is your
altitude assignment. In my part of the world, it is usually preceded by a
"climb" or "descend" but I don't know if that is required.

I'm reasonably sure that the "descend" is a required part of the
phrasology. But, the real point is that whether saying "descend" is
required or not, controllers are human, as are pilots. On both sides of
the mike, minor mistakes are made all the time. The key to making the
whole system work is to ask for clarification whenever you're not sure you
understood what the other person said or meant.

"Mitty" wrote in message
...

Direct KCKC.


Direct KCKC from where?



And she was going to lose me, probably at 5000. Both comm
and radar.


That may be, but it is only the loss of communications that is reason to
issue the clearance and have you over to CTAF before it happens.



But it was the altitude assignment that was the question.


It was bad phraseology, and possibly a bad clearance. It's not clear if the
controller meant for the descent to be discretionary or not.

You were clear for the approach because you were the only
IFR in the area and the minimum altitude for the area was
4,000 until you reached a part of the published approach.
You owned all altitudes from 7,000 feet on down, until you
reported 'out" of an altitude.
It never hurts to ask...The contact advisory meant you could
leave the Center and go to CTF. Cancel when you're on the
ground or landing assured, whichever you prefer.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Mitty" wrote in message
...
| OK, just to distract you guys from "IFR with a VFR
GPS" ---
|
| Flying into Grand Marais MN last week (KCKC) I was out
maybe
| 30 miles at 7000 and got "Cleared for the approach,
maintain
| 4000 until established. Contact advisory ... "
|
| The reason for the early clearance was, I think, that I
was
| at the edge of Center's radar and comm coverage. (Grand
| Marais is near the Canadian border on the north shore of
| Lake Superior. There was nobody around.)
|
| But I really didn't want to fly that last 30 miles at 4000
| as there were clouds about there and maybe a little ice.
I
| wanted to stay at 7. So I queried: "Center, that 4000
was
| pilot's discretion, right?" and got a "Right."
|
| Did I need to ask? Should I have assumed pilot's
| discretion? She did not tell me to descend, just gave me
| the altitude limit.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:B%wef.3438$QW2.1494@dukeread08...

You were clear for the approach because you were the only
IFR in the area and the minimum altitude for the area was
4,000 until you reached a part of the published approach.
You owned all altitudes from 7,000 feet on down, until you
reported 'out" of an altitude.


What do you base that on?