What is the difference between...

What are the differences between standard "Rip-Stock" material I can
get from my local fabric store (or even wal-mart) for $1.00/yd and the
polyester fabrics approved for covering an aircraft?

"expresstechonsite" wrote in
oups.com:

What are the differences between standard "Rip-Stock" material I can
get from my local fabric store (or even wal-mart) for $1.00/yd and the
polyester fabrics approved for covering an aircraft?



The fabric is called "ripstop" not "Rip-Stock".

Rip stop is NYLON. It will not shrink or accept
finishes. You cannot attach finishing tapes, you can't
get it to do most of the tasks you NEED fabric to do.
Now if you want to play with something very close to
uncertified fabric, Try Polyester Dress Lining. It
shrinks with heat, accepts dope, rib stiches and all that
good stuff. I used it for years in slow motorized hang gliders
before 103 was a gleam in the FAA's eye.
Oh Yeah, AC43-13 covers what fabric real well if you
are not too well exposed to this stuff.

Scott
"Ken Moffett" wrote in message
...
"expresstechonsite" wrote in
oups.com:

What are the differences between standard "Rip-Stock" material I can
get from my local fabric store (or even wal-mart) for $1.00/yd and the
polyester fabrics approved for covering an aircraft?



The fabric is called "ripstop" not "Rip-Stock".

On 3 Jun 2006 04:22:57 -0700, "expresstechonsite"
wrote:

What are the differences between standard "Rip-Stock" material I can
get from my local fabric store (or even wal-mart) for $1.00/yd and the
polyester fabrics approved for covering an aircraft?

none of the other replies got it right.

polyester fabrics go through a process during manufacture to get the
threads to sit into position that involves heating, stretching, and
reheating them to get the threads to conform to the woven shape.

aircraft fabrics are polyester fabrics that have not had the final
heat and conforming process done to them. that is the key difference.

after you glue the fabric to the aircraft structure you go all over
the fabric with a dry steam iron set to 250 farenheit. this shrinks
the fabric into the condition of your store bought poly fabric and in
the process shrinks it by up to 10%. this shrinking is what tensions
the fabric. this is quite unlike natural fibres such as cotton where
the shrinkage of the applied dope is what creates the fabric tension.

I would encourage you to obtain the manual for the Polyfiber process.
This will explain in full detail all the aspects of developing a
competent fabric covering in polyester fabric. Much of the polyfiber
process addresses issues surrounding the impermeability of the
polyester fabric and the lack of adhesion that occurs with traditional
finishes.

My personal belief is that the more recent manuals have been dumbed
down and the original stits manual has the better detail.
My polyfiber manual is dated feb 1993 and this has all the detail.

Stealth Pilot

Excuse me?
Ripstop Nylon is Nylon. That is correct.
It will not shrink or accept finishes, that is correct.
It isn't polyester, that is also correct.

Polyester Dress Lining is not the same as polyester fabric.........

Polyester Dress lining is a material that has not been sized/finished.
It is open weave, will accept dope finishes, can be heat shrunk
and is very close to the uncertified weaves of polyester A/C
fabrics EXCEPT the weights per yard are MUCH lighter.
If you had applied it, you would almost certianly know this
and I would have expected you to agree with using it as a cheap
way to practice on covering structures correctly.

The reason it is called a LINING and not a FABRIC is because
it has no pigments or ornamental "stuff" on it. The fabric
industry calls it a lining instead of a fabric because it is a
semi-finished material. It isn't finished because in its intended use
it would be disadvantageous to have it form a vapor barrier under
the clothing it was protecting...............

ANYWAY.....................

Work on how you present stuff.
I have applied this stuff and it works virtually identically
to uncertified fabrics. The only differences are the shrink
temps and the fabric weights.
--
Have a great day

Scott

none of the other replies got it right.

polyester fabrics go through a process during manufacture to get the
threads to sit into position that involves heating, stretching, and
reheating them to get the threads to conform to the woven shape.

aircraft fabrics are polyester fabrics that have not had the final
heat and conforming process done to them. that is the key difference.

after you glue the fabric to the aircraft structure you go all over
the fabric with a dry steam iron set to 250 farenheit. this shrinks
the fabric into the condition of your store bought poly fabric and in
the process shrinks it by up to 10%. this shrinking is what tensions
the fabric. this is quite unlike natural fibres such as cotton where
the shrinkage of the applied dope is what creates the fabric tension.

I would encourage you to obtain the manual for the Polyfiber process.
This will explain in full detail all the aspects of developing a
competent fabric covering in polyester fabric. Much of the polyfiber
process addresses issues surrounding the impermeability of the
polyester fabric and the lack of adhesion that occurs with traditional
finishes.

My personal belief is that the more recent manuals have been dumbed
down and the original stits manual has the better detail.
My polyfiber manual is dated feb 1993 and this has all the detail.

Stealth Pilot

expresstechonsite wrote:
What are the differences between standard "Rip-Stock" material I can
get from my local fabric store (or even wal-mart) for $1.00/yd and the
polyester fabrics approved for covering an aircraft?

I would like say my two cents in on this subject. Type Certificated
(T/C) aircraft must meet a standard to be safe 70% or "C" average.
Experimental aircraft do NOT have to follow any T/C standards. T/C
standards are things that make aircraft safe, this is why the fabric
for T/C aircraft are required to meet a technical standard order (TSO)
standard. Below is the TSO standard for grade "A" fabric, there
are many other now better than grade "A".

Aircraft fabric costs more because it meets a standard. Material
purchased at fabric outlet stores do NOT have to meet any standard cost
less. Are you willing to accept the risk on something unproven? A
copy of AC 43-12-1B is free on the FAA web site, which explain alot of
good stuff about favric and how to test it. The AC is also available
on my web site under experimental aircraft.

TSO-C15d, AIRCRAFT FABRIC, GRADE A
Minimum Performance Standards. This technical standard order (TSO)
prescribes the minimum performance standards that aircraft fabric,
grade A, must meet in order to be identified with the applicable TSO
marking. Aircraft fabrics, grade A, that are to be so identified and
that are manufactured on or after the date of this TSO must meet the
standards set forth in Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc. (SAE),
Aerospace Material Specification (AMS) Document No. AMS 3806D,
"Cloth, Airplane, Cotton, Mercerized 80 lb. (355N) Breaking
Strength," dated April 15, 1980, with the exceptions and additions
covered in subparagraphs a.(2) and a.(3) respectively of this TSO.
Fabric approved prior to the date of this TSO may continue to be
manufactured under the provision of this original approval.

Finishing: The cloth shall be uniformly finished in accordance with the
best practice for high grade airplane cloth. Finishing of cotton cloth
shall consist of washing, framing, and calendaring. The calendaring
shall be sufficient to lay any nap present and shall provide a smooth
even surface. Nap may be removed by singeing. Synthetic cloth shall
remain unfinished (greige).

Stache

My added two cents: Dress lining may or MAY NOT shrink sufficiently to
cover aircraft. I know this by experience. When I was building my
Skypup (which specifies dress sheath lining) I tried the stuff out.
After completing the fuse I had to laboriously peel it off. Apparently
when the construction manual for the Skypup was put together in the
early 80's it was common to find unshrunk sheath lining. You can't be
sure of that anymore. Indeed, it isn't necessary. If you are building a
light simple aircraft, Aircraft Spruce sells uncertified 1.7 oz dacron
for $3.20 a yard. It does everything it is supposed to do and is more
economical than fabric store sheath lining anyway (unless you get it on
sale).

Roger


Stache wrote:
expresstechonsite wrote:
What are the differences between standard "Rip-Stock" material I can
get from my local fabric store (or even wal-mart) for $1.00/yd and the
polyester fabrics approved for covering an aircraft?

I would like say my two cents in on this subject. Type Certificated
(T/C) aircraft must meet a standard to be safe 70% or "C" average.
Experimental aircraft do NOT have to follow any T/C standards. T/C
standards are things that make aircraft safe, this is why the fabric
for T/C aircraft are required to meet a technical standard order (TSO)
standard. Below is the TSO standard for grade "A" fabric, there
are many other now better than grade "A".

Aircraft fabric costs more because it meets a standard. Material
purchased at fabric outlet stores do NOT have to meet any standard cost
less. Are you willing to accept the risk on something unproven? A
copy of AC 43-12-1B is free on the FAA web site, which explain alot of
good stuff about favric and how to test it. The AC is also available
on my web site under experimental aircraft.

TSO-C15d, AIRCRAFT FABRIC, GRADE A
Minimum Performance Standards. This technical standard order (TSO)
prescribes the minimum performance standards that aircraft fabric,
grade A, must meet in order to be identified with the applicable TSO
marking. Aircraft fabrics, grade A, that are to be so identified and
that are manufactured on or after the date of this TSO must meet the
standards set forth in Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc. (SAE),
Aerospace Material Specification (AMS) Document No. AMS 3806D,
"Cloth, Airplane, Cotton, Mercerized 80 lb. (355N) Breaking
Strength," dated April 15, 1980, with the exceptions and additions
covered in subparagraphs a.(2) and a.(3) respectively of this TSO.
Fabric approved prior to the date of this TSO may continue to be
manufactured under the provision of this original approval.

Finishing: The cloth shall be uniformly finished in accordance with the
best practice for high grade airplane cloth. Finishing of cotton cloth
shall consist of washing, framing, and calendaring. The calendaring
shall be sufficient to lay any nap present and shall provide a smooth
even surface. Nap may be removed by singeing. Synthetic cloth shall
remain unfinished (greige).

Stache

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 09:19:00 -0500, "pbc76049"
wrote:

Excuse me?
Ripstop Nylon is Nylon. That is correct.
It will not shrink or accept finishes, that is correct.
It isn't polyester, that is also correct.

Polyester Dress Lining is not the same as polyester fabric.........

Polyester Dress lining is a material that has not been sized/finished.
It is open weave, will accept dope finishes, can be heat shrunk
and is very close to the uncertified weaves of polyester A/C
fabrics EXCEPT the weights per yard are MUCH lighter.
If you had applied it, you would almost certianly know this
and I would have expected you to agree with using it as a cheap
way to practice on covering structures correctly.

The reason it is called a LINING and not a FABRIC is because
it has no pigments or ornamental "stuff" on it. The fabric
industry calls it a lining instead of a fabric because it is a
semi-finished material. It isn't finished because in its intended use
it would be disadvantageous to have it form a vapor barrier under
the clothing it was protecting...............

ANYWAY.....................

Work on how you present stuff.
I have applied this stuff and it works virtually identically
to uncertified fabrics. The only differences are the shrink
temps and the fabric weights.

go back and read the original question. then remove all the spurious
bits in your reply.
Stealth Pilot