O2 Concentrator instead of O2 tank

Does anyone use an oxygen concentrator to supply pilot and passengers
in a light plane flying over 14000 feet? A quick google did not turn
up anything but home units and a recent ruling that they can be used on
commercial airlines, but I did not find anything about their use on
private planes.

They don't require more than about 100 watts, so an aircraft electrical
system could keep them going as long as the engine was running.
Internal batteries would keep it alive in an emergency.

Seems like a nice solution to elimination of messing with refilling
tanks.

tom

Recently, tom posted:

Does anyone use an oxygen concentrator to supply pilot and passengers
in a light plane flying over 14000 feet? A quick google did not turn
up anything but home units and a recent ruling that they can be used
on commercial airlines, but I did not find anything about their use on
private planes.

They don't require more than about 100 watts, so an aircraft
electrical system could keep them going as long as the engine was
running. Internal batteries would keep it alive in an emergency.

I can see a couple of possible difficulties with this related to the
required power. I presume that the home units are intended to supply a
single person? If so, a 4-pax installation would require 4x the power. At
12v, 100w = 8.3 amps; 400w = 33.2 amps (half those for 24v systems).
That's a lot of juice to draw.

Neil

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 11:42:08 GMT, "Neil Gould"
wrote in
:

At 12v, 100w = 8.3 amps; 400w = 33.2 amps (half those for 24v systems).
That's a lot of juice to draw.

I thought about that too, but IIRC cigar lighters are fused at 10A,
and the pilot alone can operate on oxygen up to 15,000' for thirty
minutes without oxygen for passengers:



§ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S.
registry—

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and
including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight
crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part
of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes
duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the
oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless
each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental
oxygen.
...

O2 Concentrators work by removing nitrogen from the ambient air, leaving the
oxygen, which comprises 21% of the air.

At altitude, the air still contains 21% oxygen. But since the air is
"thinner", it contains less oxygen than does the air at sea level.

So removing the nitrogen doesn't actually provide any additional oxygen at
altitude.

So, would a concentrator even provide any benefits?



"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 11:42:08 GMT, "Neil Gould"
wrote in
:

At 12v, 100w = 8.3 amps; 400w = 33.2 amps (half those for 24v systems).
That's a lot of juice to draw.

I thought about that too, but IIRC cigar lighters are fused at 10A,
and the pilot alone can operate on oxygen up to 15,000' for thirty
minutes without oxygen for passengers:



§ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S.
registry-

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and
including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight
crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part
of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes
duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the
oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless
each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental
oxygen.
...

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
t...
O2 Concentrators work by removing nitrogen from the ambient air, leaving the
oxygen, which comprises 21% of the air.

At altitude, the air still contains 21% oxygen. But since the air is
"thinner", it contains less oxygen than does the air at sea level.

So removing the nitrogen doesn't actually provide any additional oxygen at
altitude.

So, would a concentrator even provide any benefits?

Yes, because you are breathing air with a higher concentration of oxygen,
wich will result in higher blood oxygen saturation levels. My wife has used
one of those battery operated concentrators for commercial air travel with great
results. They are a fairly new product, and cost around 5 AMUs.

To solve the power problem, it would be theoretically possible to build a
concentrator with a belt-driven compressor as a permanent installation in a
aircraft. It would not be cheap, but it would be far cheaper than
pressurization. Perhaps some clever engineer could build a dual vacuum
pump/compressor to bolt on the same engine pad as your vacuum pump. With an
installation like that, you could afford to fly with oxygen always and enjoy the
better eyesight and quicker thinking that comes with 100% blood oxygen
saturation.

Vaughn

If you don't increase the concentration of oxygen, but are
merely removing N, the partial pressure of the oxygen will
not increase.

Pure O2 in a tank, delivered to a mask to displace some of
the ambient air and replace the displaced portion certainly
raises the O2 partial pressure. But an O2 concentrator
doesn't seem to have a pressure function or am I missing
something?



"Vaughn Simon" wrote in
message
news |
| "Bill Denton" wrote in message
| t...
| O2 Concentrators work by removing nitrogen from the
ambient air, leaving the
| oxygen, which comprises 21% of the air.
|
| At altitude, the air still contains 21% oxygen. But
since the air is
| "thinner", it contains less oxygen than does the air at
sea level.
|
| So removing the nitrogen doesn't actually provide any
additional oxygen at
| altitude.
|
| So, would a concentrator even provide any benefits?
|
| Yes, because you are breathing air with a higher
concentration of oxygen,
| wich will result in higher blood oxygen saturation levels.
My wife has used
| one of those battery operated concentrators for commercial
air travel with great
| results. They are a fairly new product, and cost around
5 AMUs.
|
| To solve the power problem, it would be theoretically
possible to build a
| concentrator with a belt-driven compressor as a permanent
installation in a
| aircraft. It would not be cheap, but it would be far
cheaper than
| pressurization. Perhaps some clever engineer could build
a dual vacuum
| pump/compressor to bolt on the same engine pad as your
vacuum pump. With an
| installation like that, you could afford to fly with
oxygen always and enjoy the
| better eyesight and quicker thinking that comes with 100%
blood oxygen
| saturation.
|
| Vaughn
|
|

So removing the nitrogen doesn't actually provide any additional oxygen at
altitude.

Sure it does. With (some of) the nitrogen gone, the air is thinner, and
lower pressure. The surrounding air squeezes it all together, including
the oxygen, which is now more concentrated. Ultimately, volume does not
remain constant, but pressure does.
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Bill Denton wrote:

At altitude, the air still contains 21% oxygen. But since the air is
"thinner", it contains less oxygen than does the air at sea level.

So removing the nitrogen doesn't actually provide any additional oxygen at
altitude.

The "amount" of oxygen is of little importance. The thing that controls
perfusion is the partial pressure of O2.

Ron Natalie wrote:
Bill Denton wrote:

At altitude, the air still contains 21% oxygen. But since the air is
"thinner", it contains less oxygen than does the air at sea level.

So removing the nitrogen doesn't actually provide any additional oxygen at
altitude.

The "amount" of oxygen is of little importance. The thing that controls
perfusion is the partial pressure of O2.


Working in very round numbers, if you'd accept the total pressure of the
atmosphere at sea level to be 15 psi, the partial pressure of oxygen would be 3
psi (20% of 15). At around 18,000 feet, the total atmospheric pressure is cut
in half, so the partial pressure of oxygen at that altitude would be about 1.5
psi. You need to come up with another 1.5 psi of oxygen to bring it up to an
equivalence with what we breath a sea level.

I'm not exactly sure how a concentrator would work since I'm foggy about its
operation. Even dealing with bottled oxygen, you don't get to assume a simple
mathematical relationship because the cannula just adds pure O2 to what blows up
your nose... but it doesn't exclude ambient air.

I'm finding this whole thread confusing. Maybe I need a hit of O2?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Larry Dighera wrote:

I thought about that too, but IIRC cigar lighters are fused at 10A,
and the pilot alone can operate on oxygen up to 15,000' for thirty
minutes without oxygen for passengers:

I flew at 14,000 once with O2 for myself and co-pilot only and the boy in
the back seat vomited into a bag about halfway into the trip.

At that point I realized it was wrong of me to assume that just because the
FARS allow it that it must be safe. Never again.

--
Peter