IMC without an autopilot

Well, it would seem an interesting scientific question as to whether the
introduction of autopilot indeed led to fewer IMC accidents. It seems
that one could appeal to the accident data history and find out.

I feel safer knowing that I have an autopilot, but that does not mean
that I am. For example, I doubt that if I got the plane into a really
unusual attitude (flying manually), that I could just flip my autopilot
on and everything would be OK. On the other hand, one might
successfully argue that if I habitually use my autopilot, the chances of
getting into an unusal attitude are lower.

In short, I do not think that this question can be answered by appeal to
intuition; facts based on data would be good here.

-Sami

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...

Just curious as to opinions about flying in IMC without an autopilot?

An autopilot is nice; but for years, in military and private a/c, we
didnt have them, and we got along just fine.


And disorientation in IMC lead to a lot of people not "getting along fine",
but rather splattering themselves over the landscape.

Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad time to be
out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.

IMHO, it is very very easy to become complacent with George to do your flying
when the chips are down. I think your chances of getting into an unusual
attitude are much higher with a system failure if you habitually use your
autopilot.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

Well, it would seem an interesting scientific question as to whether the
introduction of autopilot indeed led to fewer IMC accidents. It seems
that one could appeal to the accident data history and find out.

I feel safer knowing that I have an autopilot, but that does not mean
that I am. For example, I doubt that if I got the plane into a really
unusual attitude (flying manually), that I could just flip my autopilot
on and everything would be OK. On the other hand, one might
successfully argue that if I habitually use my autopilot, the chances of
getting into an unusal attitude are lower.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"Ray Andraka" wrote in message
...
Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it may
not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad time
to be
out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.

And hand flying doesn;t help if a the wing falls off. I didn't see that
anyone was putting "100% of the time" reliaance on an AP.


IMHO, it is very very easy to become complacent with George to do your
flying
when the chips are down. I think your chances of getting into an unusual
attitude are much higher with a system failure if you habitually use your
autopilot.

And how about those who hand fly ALL THE TIME and still lose it in IMC?

I'd like to see a historical analysis. Even the Operating Handbooks from the
AP manufacturers recommed against using the AP as a crutch.

[repost as my original never appeared - apologies if it does]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:

Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad time to
be out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.

What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.


--
Peter R.















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I believe the Piper and century autopilots use the AI. The fact that the STEC uses
the turn coordinator was a large factor in selecting that A/P (Stec-20) for my
airplane. One of the major motivations for adding the AP was the ability to boost my
safety in a partial panel situation, and yes, I do find it very nice for those map
juggling episodes. I don't have a panel mount GPS, only a handheld Pilot-III.
Without the A/P setting that GPS is set what you need to now, go back and add the rest
in little steps later. With the autopilot, resetting the GPS is made a lot easier.
Still, I hand fly much more than most pilots I know who have autopilots. I want to
make sure that I am proficient with handflying when I need it. The big thing the auto
pilot gives me is a back-up to let me turn the flying over to someone (thing) else
while I take care of other things when needed.

Regarding 2 axis, my aircraft is very stable in the pitch axis. Setting the trim
properly holds my altitude very well. Similarly, I can get a constant rate descent by
simply reducing power (4 inches gets me a 500 FPM descent). Sure, I'd like to have
a 2 axis AP, but there are other things competing for my cash that are a higher
priority.

"Peter R." wrote:

[
What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.


--
Peter R.

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--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"Ray Andraka" wrote in message
...
I believe the Piper and century autopilots use the AI. The fact that the
STEC uses
the turn coordinator was a large factor in selecting that A/P (Stec-20)
for my
airplane.

Does anyone know the ratio of failures of electrically driven instruments
compared to vacuum driven?

I don't know what the STEC-20 has for fault protection, but the 2100 does
have cross-checks to the other instruments and internal checks.

My Century 31 uses the AI. It's not very common though.

On the general topic... an AP is jolly handy when flying ANY
cross country. It's kind of hard work to fly a long xc without
one. However autopilots are so fickle that you'd better be
able to hand fly without worrying about it! My experience
(in several aircraft) is that they are down as much as not.
Also when the going gets really tough you want to hand fly.
If you're not comfortable hand flying on top or in smooth
cloud, you're really going to be in trouble when you hit
mod-to-sev turbulence in a front and the ap can't handle it.

My policy is to use the ap in good conditions on long flights,
and to hand fly on training flights.

John

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
[repost as my original never appeared - apologies if it does]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:

Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it
may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad
time to
be out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.

What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither
rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.


--
Peter R.















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Newsgroups
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Peter R. wrote:
[repost as my original never appeared - apologies if it does]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:


Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad time to
be out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.


What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

Two examples that I am familiar with are Piper Autocontrol III-B (had one in my
previous airplane) and Century 21 (have one in my current airplane). There's a
"pickoff" on the AI. If either the AI or the suction go south, the autopilot
will attempt to follow the dying AI.


If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.

I agree. All-electric is better than having an autopilot that relies on the
vacuum instruments. In my airplane, I've added the AeroAdvantage dual-rotor
vacuum pump to give myself a little bit of redundancy in the vacuum supply.
Doesn't help if the instrument fails, though.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply.

It is surprising/frightening how many pilots do not know where their
autopilot gets its roll input. I have read of cases where a pilot went to
partial-panel because the vacuum pump failed, while their electric turn
coordinator and HSI continued to work just fine.

Bob Gardner

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
[repost as my original never appeared - apologies if it does]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:

Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it
may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad
time to
be out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.

What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither
rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.


--
Peter R.















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"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:FZgcc.78300$w54.443455@attbi_s01...
It is surprising/frightening how many pilots do not know where their
autopilot gets its roll input. I have read of cases where a pilot went to
partial-panel because the vacuum pump failed, while their electric turn
coordinator and HSI continued to work just fine.

Wouldn't covering the AI (or other vacuum driven instruments) be considered
"partial panel"?