Electric locomotion will replace internal combustion

On Sep 17, 12:30*pm, wrote:
Edward A. Falk wrote:





In article ,
wrote:
Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

Presumably, by then electric vehicles will be practical. *I think that's
OP's original point.

And a good point it is -- if we achieve a) cheap, clean electricity
(e.g. fusion, solar) and b) practical batteries, then we'll see incredible
changes in air quality, the economy, and even world politics.

I would guess that the use of internal combusion engines will not actually
be outlawed. *More likely, people who want to operate them (e.g. antiques
collectors) will simply pay a pollution tax when they buy the fuel.

Bear in mind that if 99% of the vehicles switch to electric, then the
few ICEs that remain won't be generating enough pollution to actually
worry about. *We might even see a relaxation of pollution laws rather
than a tightening of them.

I'm not holding my breath though. *Batteries suck and they're not getting
much better. *It will be exciting to see what the next 50 years brings.

Batteries have been around for 210 years and there is nothing on horizon
that will provide anywhere near the energy density required to power
something like a big rig truck, a farm tractor, construction machinery,
airplanes, a train, or a boat of any size.

Even pure electric cars are not practical as a replacement for an ICE car
in other than very limited conditions.

--
Jim Pennino

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Wrong.

---
Mark

Mark wrote:
On Sep 17, 12:30Â*pm, wrote:
Edward A. Falk wrote:





In article ,
wrote:
Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

Presumably, by then electric vehicles will be practical. Â*I think that's
OP's original point.

And a good point it is -- if we achieve a) cheap, clean electricity
(e.g. fusion, solar) and b) practical batteries, then we'll see incredible
changes in air quality, the economy, and even world politics.

I would guess that the use of internal combusion engines will not actually
be outlawed. Â*More likely, people who want to operate them (e.g. antiques
collectors) will simply pay a pollution tax when they buy the fuel.

Bear in mind that if 99% of the vehicles switch to electric, then the
few ICEs that remain won't be generating enough pollution to actually
worry about. Â*We might even see a relaxation of pollution laws rather
than a tightening of them.

I'm not holding my breath though. Â*Batteries suck and they're not getting
much better. Â*It will be exciting to see what the next 50 years brings.

Batteries have been around for 210 years and there is nothing on horizon
that will provide anywhere near the energy density required to power
something like a big rig truck, a farm tractor, construction machinery,
airplanes, a train, or a boat of any size.

Even pure electric cars are not practical as a replacement for an ICE car
in other than very limited conditions.

--
Jim Pennino

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Wrong.

Yes, you usually are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

Conventional gasoline: 34.8 MJ/L 43 MJ/kg

100LL: 44 MJ/kg 32 MJ/L

Jet A 43 MJ/kg 33 MJ/L

Lithium ion nanowire battery: 2.54 MJ/kg (experimental, bleeding edge)

Supercapacitor: .01 MJ/kg (experimental, bleeding edge)


--
Jim Pennino

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On Sep 17, 2:04*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 17, 12:30*pm, wrote:
Edward A. Falk wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution..

Presumably, by then electric vehicles will be practical. *I think that's
OP's original point.

And a good point it is -- if we achieve a) cheap, clean electricity
(e.g. fusion, solar) and b) practical batteries, then we'll see incredible
changes in air quality, the economy, and even world politics.

I would guess that the use of internal combusion engines will not actually
be outlawed. *More likely, people who want to operate them (e.g. antiques
collectors) will simply pay a pollution tax when they buy the fuel.

Bear in mind that if 99% of the vehicles switch to electric, then the
few ICEs that remain won't be generating enough pollution to actually
worry about. *We might even see a relaxation of pollution laws rather
than a tightening of them.

I'm not holding my breath though. *Batteries suck and they're not getting
much better. *It will be exciting to see what the next 50 years brings.

Batteries have been around for 210 years and there is nothing on horizon
that will provide anywhere near the energy density required to power
something like a big rig truck, a farm tractor, construction machinery,
airplanes, a train, or a boat of any size.

Even pure electric cars are not practical as a replacement for an ICE car
in other than very limited conditions.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Yes, you usually are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

Conventional gasoline: 34.8 MJ/L 43 MJ/kg

100LL: 44 MJ/kg 32 MJ/L

Jet A 43 MJ/kg 33 MJ/L

Lithium ion nanowire battery: 2.54 MJ/kg (experimental, bleeding edge)

Supercapacitor: .01 MJ/kg *(experimental, bleeding edge)

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, and let's examine the source of this data.

LOL! Some kid named Scott on Wikipedia. Ya gotta stop
believing everything you read on Wikipedia. On top of that,
this is outdated technology.

---
Mark

Mark wrote:
On Sep 17, 2:04Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 17, 12:30Â*pm, wrote:
Edward A. Falk wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

Presumably, by then electric vehicles will be practical. Â*I think that's
OP's original point.

And a good point it is -- if we achieve a) cheap, clean electricity
(e.g. fusion, solar) and b) practical batteries, then we'll see incredible
changes in air quality, the economy, and even world politics.

I would guess that the use of internal combusion engines will not actually
be outlawed. Â*More likely, people who want to operate them (e.g. antiques
collectors) will simply pay a pollution tax when they buy the fuel.

Bear in mind that if 99% of the vehicles switch to electric, then the
few ICEs that remain won't be generating enough pollution to actually
worry about. Â*We might even see a relaxation of pollution laws rather
than a tightening of them.

I'm not holding my breath though. Â*Batteries suck and they're not getting
much better. Â*It will be exciting to see what the next 50 years brings.

Batteries have been around for 210 years and there is nothing on horizon
that will provide anywhere near the energy density required to power
something like a big rig truck, a farm tractor, construction machinery,
airplanes, a train, or a boat of any size.

Even pure electric cars are not practical as a replacement for an ICE car
in other than very limited conditions.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Yes, you usually are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

Conventional gasoline: 34.8 MJ/L 43 MJ/kg

100LL: 44 MJ/kg 32 MJ/L

Jet A 43 MJ/kg 33 MJ/L

Lithium ion nanowire battery: 2.54 MJ/kg (experimental, bleeding edge)

Supercapacitor: .01 MJ/kg Â*(experimental, bleeding edge)

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, and let's examine the source of this data.

LOL! Some kid named Scott on Wikipedia. Ya gotta stop
believing everything you read on Wikipedia. On top of that,
this is outdated technology.

Pick any site you want and you will find the numbers are essentially the
same.

The energy density numbers will vary around a couple of percent depending
on the method used to get them, but they will not change by an order of
magnitude, which is what is needed for batteries, or three orders of
magnitude which you would need for supercapacitors.

And no, lithium ion nanowire batteries are bleeding edge technology and
don't exist outside of a lab.

Supercapacitors powering automobiles is a joke.

If you have some real source, i.e. a real company or university, of better
battery technology, let's see it.

Pie in the sky press releases don't count, only lab results.


--
Jim Pennino

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On Sep 17, 7:24*pm, wrote:

Pie in the sky press releases don't count, only lab results.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, I can respect that. It'll take a little digging to determine
why everyone now seems to be hitting the 150mile range.

If you're interested in reading
more in depth about Graphene, the one molecule thick wafer
of honey-combed carbon, somewhere there's an explanation
of it's ultracapacitor applications that would antiquate anything
we've see thus far.

---
Mark

In article
,
Mark wrote:

On Sep 17, 7:24*pm, wrote:

Pie in the sky press releases don't count, only lab results.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, I can respect that. It'll take a little digging to determine
why everyone now seems to be hitting the 150mile range.

If you're interested in reading
more in depth about Graphene, the one molecule thick wafer
of honey-combed carbon, somewhere there's an explanation
of it's ultracapacitor applications that would antiquate anything
we've see thus far.

---
Mark

How about the balonium/unobtaium ion battery that recharges in five
minutes? That's the one that electric vehicle advocates are counting on!

On Sep 17, 9:36*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

How about the balonium/unobtaium ion battery that recharges in five
minutes? That's the one that electric vehicle advocates are counting on!

Having a little nip this evening are we Orval? (not that there's
anything wrong with that) Anyhoo...forget about advocates.
They were the first wave. Now it's progressed on to actual
manufacturers and distributors.

I can see these things man. ( I'm sober)

Dateline 2016:

"Cessna has announced that after trial tests and FAA
final certification, they are proud to announce their new
line of electric airplanes. With their elimination of a need
for either an intake or exhaust system, the performance
numbers are quite impressive, extending the Skyhawk
service ceiling to 20 thousand ft."

---
Mark

On Sep 17, 7:24*pm, wrote:

If you have some real source, i.e. a real company or university, of better
battery technology, let's see it.

Pie in the sky press releases don't count, only lab results.

--
Jim Pennino

http://www.sequence-omega.net/2009/1...-on-batteries/

"Nissan's Leaf is planning to bring pure electric driving to
consumers sometime in late 2010 or early 2011. However work
is almost complete on more advanced batteries, ones that can
double the amount of energy storage capacity of current batteries."

---
Mark

Mark wrote:
On Sep 17, 7:24Â*pm, wrote:

If you have some real source, i.e. a real company or university, of better
battery technology, let's see it.

Pie in the sky press releases don't count, only lab results.

--
Jim Pennino

http://www.sequence-omega.net/2009/1...-on-batteries/

"Nissan's Leaf is planning to bring pure electric driving to
consumers sometime in late 2010 or early 2011. However work
is almost complete on more advanced batteries, ones that can
double the amount of energy storage capacity of current batteries."

Pie in the sky press release.

"If we were to ... in a hypothetical generation two LEAF ... we could ..."

If you don't have numbers for MJ/L or MJ/kg, don't bother.


--
Jim Pennino

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